[Speaker 1] (0:00 - 1:51)
Approved by the Attorney General yet, and they did ask for an extension, citing that their decision would be available on November the 9th. So, because we don't have, because we don't have a, what are the rubber stamp from, I guess I shouldn't call it a rubber stamp. We don't have the official application approval from the AG.

We'll be reviewing this night, but we won't be making, we won't be taking any votes, and we will be keeping the review kind of very high level. Essentially, what we want to go over in this meeting is to look at the application. First of all, to make sure that it is complete, and if it's not complete, then in 30 days, we'll respond and let you know exactly, within 30 days, we'll let you know exactly what is missing from the application, or if we have any questions, if there's any more information that we may need.

We'll ask you to submit that prior to our November 14th meeting, at which time we hope to have an approved plan from the AG. And once this is approved by the AG, it, the approval is retroactive to the town meeting vote. So, I'm clear on that.

I've confirmed with town council about it. So, we are free to go ahead and do a review of the materials that we have to date for the general Glover site, 299 Salem Street. And I see that we have the whole team here.

So, I think I'll turn it over to you. I don't know if, Bill, you're probably going to want to...

[Speaker 7] (1:51 - 5:09)
I will start because our attorney, Paul Feldman, is sick and unable to speak this evening. So, he will be with us the next time. But thank you.

Thanks for the opportunity to present again. We appreciated having the opportunity to speak to you a month or so ago, whenever it was. And as you'll see, we've incorporated a bunch of those comments and changes into the drawings that Thad will go over with you this evening.

But just as a way of background, given that this is our first kind of official meeting, I would just say, like I would call properties who we are. So, Bill Gause, the principal with the firm. I've been there for almost 30 years.

Joined this evening by Sam Cole, one of my partners. And we are, again, as I showed you last time, Boston-based and involved in a multitude of projects from residential to office life science and involved with a lot of third-party advisory with institutional clients as well. So, this particular site, we're obviously delighted to be in front of you talking about it.

It's obviously a complex site, as we know, straddling three communities and the complexities associated with it. And obviously, it hasn't been redeveloped in a very long time. So, obviously, we appreciate the cooperation and working with the town of Swampscote to enable the passing of the Glover Multifamily Overlay District to enable this project to move ahead.

The project that we're presenting is in conformance with that overlay district. We are, as we've mentioned, obviously, going through a parallel process in Marblehead at the same time. And I think the timing of both of these hearings will probably conclude in the same time frame.

And obviously, we have a traffic study that's been prepared and a review that is being coordinated between the communities. And obviously, we appreciate the cooperation in that regard. So, just again, by way of background, two buildings in Swampscote and one building in Marblehead.

And the four-story residential buildings, parking underneath in two of the buildings, a mix of one-bedroom, two-bedroom units. And again, designed in accordance with the overlay in Swampscote. I think one of the points that we try to accentuate and drive home is the fact that, yes, these are two, actually three communities.

But the fact that there is a town line there is not noticed by anybody. So, we're obviously, from our perspective, trying to make this design feel as, and we believe it will feel as, one cohesive development for all these buildings coming together. But again, we'll run through some of the changes from last time.

But happy to be here with that. I'll turn it over to Pat. You're on mute, Pat.

[Speaker 2] (5:10 - 5:11)
I haven't learned yet, Bill.

[Speaker 7] (5:11 - 5:12)
I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2] (5:12 - 15:24)
Everybody. Pat Samasko, SV Design Architects. Happy to be here and present.

As a way of summary, this part of the site that's in Swampscote, it's a four-plus acre site, but 2.28 acres are in Swampscote. And it is, as Angela mentioned, in this, or will be, hopefully, in this Glover multifamily overlay district with a business zone underneath. The Swampscote portion of the project has 96 residential units, representing 41.6 units per acre, which is, again, conforms to the overlay. And 17 of those units will be affordable. 40 of the units, which is about 42 percent, will be one-bedroom, 53 are two-bedroom, and there's three three-bedroom units that are included in the project. The buildings are four stories, 49 feet.

They're 40 feet to the eave line, and then there's, we felt the pitch roofs were appropriate as a way to screen mechanical equipment and feel like they belonged in the town. So we're at 49 feet to the ridge of the buildings. We are providing parking at 1.5 spaces per unit, which has proven to be ample for these kinds of projects. Of those 144 spaces, 43 are located within underneath buildings within parking garages, and 101 are on the surface, 39 of which actually are on the other side of the line in Marblehead. Parking space size is 9 by 18 with a generous 24-foot aisle width. And we meet the open space requirement, which is one square foot of open space is provided for every two and a half square feet of gross floor area.

So we meet all those criteria of the overlay district, as well as there's some design standards that are published that we also feel that we are in conformance with. And as most of the projects are these days, we incorporate a high level of sustainability, environmental sustainability, into the design. This chart is included in the submission, but basically runs through lot area, lot width, frontage, setbacks, and so forth to show conformance, including the open space area and the height.

Talks through how the parking space is derived. And then this is a unit mix by building between the one bedrooms and the two bedrooms and by floor that totals to 96. And then there's a floor area summary for you that basically gives you the general flair.

The amenity building from the last time you presented has actually been shifted slightly and redesigned a bit and made a little bit smaller and more efficient. Same general functions, but slightly smaller. And I'll show you why a little bit further on in the presentation.

And so in total, when you put the Marblehead and Swampscott together, Marblehead has 44 units. So it's a total of 140 with 222 parking spaces provided for both projects. So again, a total of 140 units and their mix is generally similar with the two, probably slightly more percentage of two bedrooms than ones, but essentially a mix of one and two bedroom units.

So at the Google Earth flyover, it shows the three towns, three jurisdictions coming together. This bit of land right here in Swampscott, and rather Salem, it's like 0.3 acres. There's a small, there's this piece in Marblehead, I think it's 1.6. And then our piece here in Swampscott. Most of the restaurant complex is in here. The sort of support part of the complex was this part in here, this old abandoned bank. Obviously, there's a really great tree line separation as we're surrounded by the Tedesco Country Club.

Lots of commercial on this side of the world. Lots of, there's a few ways for pedestrians to connect to use those commercial services, which we hope will reduce the amount of car trips. And we know this intersection is a bit challenging.

And so we've actually put our access points as far away here on the Marblehead side, and in alignment with Sunbeam on this side here on the Swampscott side off of Salem Street. So you only have two access points. There are lots of curb cuts here now.

They'll all be closed up to just have the two single curb cuts across the site. In your packages, the Alta survey that again shows these buildings, existing conditions, existing trees. Most of the trees have not been particularly well managed or in pretty bad shape.

So the notion is to raise the buildings, probably raise most, if not all the trees within the site and start afresh with a new pretty robust landscape plan. I apologize for that. This is a view from, rotate it, I guess.

That's a view right from the corner. You can appreciate when you've left the commercial part of Vinnins Square and you come to this corner, it's kind of a nice refreshing change to see the green open space here. And we are in fact keeping that idea in play as we go forward.

Okay, we're going to have to play a game here. And then coming down Vinnins, sorry, Salem Street toward the square, you can kind of see this line here. These two stone piers that mark the entrance to probably what's the Sunbeam Inn that was back here are kind of interesting.

There's a bus stop here. But the site is basically flat and wholly usable. There's no wetlands within sight.

So this plan, as you've seen before, features the two, for vehicles, the two access points aligned with Sunbeam and down as far as I mentioned. With a circulation path that's trying to discourage cut-throughs by having it be quite circuitous for somebody to sort of come through. There are the three buildings, lots of great pedestrian connections from the buildings to each other and to the crosswalks and to the site.

One feature added to the project recently was a bit of a monument to mark the point where the three towns come together, like the four corners of Colorado, Utah, etc. And then we added some nice walking paths here so that folks who are walking this way won't necessarily have to walk so much on the busy Vinan Street. And likewise, while there was a grass strip along part of this walkway, we managed to find enough right away to move the walkway over and have a grass strip along here, which just makes the pedestrian experience feel safer and frankly encourages more of it.

The guidelines asked us to get the parking out of view largely from the street and put the buildings parallel to streets, which we essentially have done. We've kept the building out of Salem completely, so there's a really great greenway here that's connecting through. As you can see, this big corner is even more enhanced now with a chance for essentially what will feel like a public park.

Connecting Building 2 here, which is by the way we access underneath the building from this end so there's not a garage facing Salem Street, is an amenity building, which I'll show you what's in there in a second. But we were able to reduce the parking a bit and add a nice generous green space here and move the pool to this side of things, which just makes the pool in a much nicer spot. We had it here a little bit more tucked in earlier.

So it allowed us to get a couple really nice terraces on the front of the building, basically facing the southwest side. So there's lots of places for folks who live on the project to enjoy the site within the site proper with the buildings basically providing some quiet and privacy for it. You can see, of course, we kept the tree line.

The tree line exists between us and the country club. Those are the highlights of the site plan. As I mentioned, lots of effort is made for pedestrians to safely come through, connect one building to the other to the amenity space and really out to the commercial spaces that are in the Vidden Square area.

I apologize, I've turned the plan on you so you now have Vidden Street on the left and Salem Street on the bottom. But we have a ground floor on Salem Street. It's all units so there won't be a parking garage in view from the street level.

It's units all the way down to the ground with ground level patios that are embedded in a nice landscape strip. The purple units here are two bedrooms and the blue are one bedrooms. This is four stories, pretty much stacks up.

Trash is handled within the building with compactors and composting and recycling so there's no dumpsters so forth on site. It's picked up privately and brought out so there's no issues with trash being on the site and dumpsters and so forth. On the ground level of this building here is the parking garage that you come in from this end and elevator loggers and so forth.

It's got a dry weather connection through to this amenity building which again I'll describe a bit a little further in the presentation. Going up to level two.

[Speaker 7] (15:24 - 15:30)
Did you want to just touch on the berming, your screening for the parking on Salem Street?

[Speaker 2] (15:31 - 21:24)
Sure, the landscape plan will show along here and here a bermed earth and heavily planted landscape screening of this parking area. There's a good 20 plus feet in here that allows us to do that. Thank you, Bill.

That's an important feature because obviously the parking view from the street is not something that we'd want to have. Floors two, three and four are all pretty similar as they stack up through the building. Most of the units have balconies.

We've designed some very large bay windows on key points in the project to add some visual interest to it. The buildings do have some articulation with the balconies and some other bays added to again per the standards but just to add some visual interest to the building as does a whole variety of materials which I'll talk about in a minute as well. The units are generally speaking the one bedrooms are 750 square feet, the two bedrooms are 1050 and the three bedrooms are 1500 and those are included in your package, the typical unit layouts including the accessible units which are provided at the rate of five percent of the total.

So the amenity building now as you connect across from the building that's on the golf course has a management and sales rental office here, a very good size fitness area with some with some fitness studios, access to an outdoor fitness area and then a large commons room with quite a nice cathedral ceiling and light monitor, some work from home stations here, changing room, shower, toilets and so forth all contained within it and then access lots of access to the outside terraces.

This is actually has a pergola over it as a terraced area and it's embedded in some landscaping and this is more of a paved terrace here also landscaped. Out here the landscape architect will describe the fire pit and some other those and grill stations other amenities that happen in this spot over here and then of course this there's a swimming pool that's really embedded in in landscape so that it's private for the folks who are using the pool and it happens this is actually the town lines it's actually the pool itself is in Marblehead and the building itself is in Swampscott.

It's a one-story building a little extra height in it but basically low enough that the folks in in this building here will be looking over the top of it. So this view here is if you're leaving Vinnins Square coming down off of Salem Street between the building on the left here is the Marblehead building and the building on the right is is on the one on Salem Street and this pathway system you can see taking off bringing you around and again the very heavily landscaped idea we have to route the buildings in the ground. You can also pick up start to pick up here the material articulation of the stone base and then a shingled shaft and then an upper level capital with sort of a board and band kind of panel technique and then the roof up top.

And then if you get past through that and past the tree line you can kind of see there's these the two bay the two larger bays Marblehead and Swampscott facing one another as you sort of discover your way through into this into this inner courtyard area where that amenity building starts to show. And then looking at that at the amenity building with with the I'll call it the golf course building on your right here and the connector across these light monitors letting light into the fitness center and into the commons area and then these nice outdoor terrace areas that are privatized out front here as well. Kind of typical view of part of a portion of a building that sprung pretty typically through the project.

You can see the stone base with the arches use of a shingle material traditional kind Swampscott building material a standard double hung windows you know traditional windows with a black sash this sort of taupe colored trim and then introducing some groove v-groove or shiplap kind of siding which is a little bit of a nautical feel to it in this blue color. You'll see some standing metal seam roofs on projected base and also get the color. So we're trying to first break it this way horizontally as these as the standard suggestion we think is is really ideal and then a second layer of the shingle and then this upper attic story we call it with the with the boarding baton treatment so it's a little bit lighter up top and gets heavier as as we head down balconies are roofed and also help articulate you know some interest in the facade. In the packet are elevations of each of the buildings that define those materials I just mentioned here that are that are keyed in and described the building heights so those are shown for each of the buildings a little less pretty than the the 3d views but but basically we'll complete the package.

[Speaker 7] (21:25 - 21:30)
I'd like to mention that we're changing out of your gable ends there.

[Speaker 2] (21:32 - 29:15)
Yeah there was some feedback that these roofs over these balconies originally were were gable shape and were sort of tall maybe enhancing the height accentuating the height and was there a way to reduce their impact so we looked at a few different things we've got some dutch hip roofs we looked at at at no roofs which I we actually felt didn't work well and settled on since we had done this bay idea here as well to sort of to just do a series of the hip roofs on on the buildings you can kind of see them showing up here rather than rather than those perhaps more stridently vertical gables we think that helps knock the apparent height of the building down just you know part of what we've been we're sensitive to the height here but we're creating some street walls which we think is appropriate for this you know for this kind of projects but at the same time to the extent that we can reduce apparent height we've done as many of the I'll call them tricks as we can so these elevations run through the set including the amenity building which gets you a little closer here but you can you can see here with the with the pergola uh terrace out front the you know kind of the main entrance in and these sort of light clearer stories letting light into those spaces coming across and connecting lots of glass in that building hopefully you know nice bright and inviting building so that the tenants will avail themselves of it in the packet as well as is a um showing of the materials um from the shingle roof through the the various siding patterns the stone base which will be granite uh one inch granite veneer standing seam metal and the black sash and so forth and on the railings as well as the windows and i threw this in this is a someone's asking me like what's the color palette kind of feel like this is a house it's on the humphrey street i think credit to the architect it wasn't me but we like the color combination of this sort of topi color our shingle will be sort of bleached and the black sash and there's even i think in real life this is even a little bit of a blue cast to it which we think is really really nice and crisp and clean um and so we think that's generally the direction that we're heading with and the color thought we'd give you a real life view of that along the sidewalk edge on on salem street um there is a grass strip that starts at the bus stop there are these two piers we've uh worked into the plans the idea of moving the bus stop to this area between the two piers and putting a putting in a pad and some benches there so that would become the new bus stop and preserving the stone piers they need a little bit of repointing but they're actually stable um so we'd keep them as as sort of as a monument to the history that was their remembrance of the history that was there and then i think here they are here a little rough but they're they're they're salvageable and then you can see that uh grass strip leaves us here and and by the way this is going to get filled in this curb cut so we'll have the curb coming along we'll have the grass strip and the sidewalk in board running all the way down to the length to get to the corner you can see what's happening here so this overgrown shrubbery here there's actually enough room to get that sidewalk in and that grass strip in which that which is on our plan now and then as you get just to the entrance of the old the side entrance of the glover uh restaurant the it turns into this uh uh concrete sidewalk on a right away it follows that line so we're keeping this section along but at that point you can jettison off and get onto that pathway system and and walk along um vinan street um what you know with a feeling of some safety after this and this is a salem project where the buildings are reasonably close to the street but with the impact of the landscape on reducing um you know the impact of the mass of the buildings on the road it's pretty clear and imagine if these cables weren't here and they were hips that it would really again reduce that that height included in the packet um it's just sort of a listing of the basic sustainability aspects of the project um biggest one being that we're redeveloping the site that had been developed that it's pretty much wall-to-wall building and asphalt um we're obviously close to amenities in the neighborhood we were tired for the walkability and the bikeability uh aspects within the design there are you know bus stop there's a bus stop right on our side and across the street oh yeah there's a some reduction of the impervious area of uh of the project and where all of our runoff now gets treated and we'll use typically um you know we'll be reducing generating the amount of non-reflective surfaces that we have a roof hidden up in that um in the middle of these buildings it would be a white roof um and then our landscape plan is generating a bias toward the drought tolerant native non-invasive type plantings and building wise you don't go through all these but basically built into the buildings a lot of this is now code required but a lot of it is just best practice of trying to hit the stretch energy code plus hitting a lead silver certifiable type level um you know exterior insulation and so forth being added ervs all those things plenty of eb charging stations included some bike storage in the garage and so forth so the benefits of the project um i think they're reasonably these are some of them the more obvious ones probably that we're getting uh much needed housing provided with 14 of the units being affordable we're revitalizing some properties that are a bit derelict increasing the tax uh revenue for the town and and achieving the town's working with the town to achieve the vision to was expressed in the adoption of this overlay district initially in this revised one and legate mccall is known for their high quality professional building management and and these sustainable design characteristics we think are important in the packet and will be presented next time by the civil engineer is a full-blown civil package lighting diagrams and and all that good stuff drainage utilities layout i won't get into that tonight but that's all in here as well as a traffic report that i know is being peer reviewed that will be coming to our will be coming in the next meeting i think i don't have any more voice left i'm happy to answer questions um that you may have thank you very much you're welcome

[Speaker 1] (29:17 - 30:34)
so we do have um we did receive um the uh peer review of the traffic studies um interestingly i don't have the the original traffic study so um that was done by vaness i believe about a year ago so i need to um i'm sure that is available somewhere but um we don't have that available however we did we did get the peer review and obviously we also have the the stormwater plan from bowler and um i believe we're also getting a peer review done on that particular plan um what i understand here i i i noticed just running through the plans and it could be that some of this just isn't wasn't updated but it was my understanding that um marblehead was reducing their their spaces per unit to 1.5 i still saw about two on the plan i wasn't sure whether that was um had been changed or or not yeah

[Speaker 2] (30:34 - 31:09)
there we're reducing the marblehead spaces by 10 so it will be less than two uh but more than 1.5 yeah um i'm assuming you're referring to the chart here um yeah i was yeah just out of curiosity because i know you increased some open space back there so yeah angela so uh two per unit would be 88 and we have 78 shown here right and that that's what we intend to provide so it is total parking

[Speaker 1] (31:09 - 31:12)
then um the 237

[Speaker 2] (31:14 - 31:21)
all together is that correct it would be 222 you're 144 and the 78 all right okay

[Speaker 1] (31:22 - 31:28)
it was 232 all right so we just need to correct a couple of things on that yeah i i think this

[Speaker 2] (31:28 - 31:33)
might be what was required the two space per unit was what was required as opposed to what

[Speaker 1] (31:33 - 32:35)
was provided but that that should be made clearer yes okay um let's see okay so first i'm before i i go on um with my own um observations and comments um and i would like to say that i i think the hip group is um that's a um i was very pleased to see that so thanks for making that um just one other um design issue that um i know we had mentioned last time on the uh on the golf course building um i had asked about the possibility of softening the street facing end of that building i've been in excuse me the salem street facing end of that building um because it's just kind of a a chunk there and i thought that those bay windows are so um creates kind of a nice end cap to the that big building so i don't know whether you were able

[Speaker 2] (32:35 - 33:13)
to consider that uh i did not i think you're talking about this elevation uh yes yeah yeah no i i honestly um i did notice that was on my notes to take a peek at and i think we're talking about doing something on this end to add a bit we can we can get that into our next i think that makes sense um okay thank you yeah i i admit that um i i looked at my notes from the last meeting um just before this one so i saw that and said oops yeah i get into that

[Speaker 1] (33:14 - 33:42)
so uh any members of the board that would like to talk about what we've looked at ask questions um bill or ted or dave or mike please feel free anybody right now okay so um

[Speaker 4] (33:43 - 34:41)
to double check oh go ahead i wasn't sure you know i wanted to give it others to jump in uh first of all i agree with angela i wasn't sure about the hip roof if i was gonna like it and i don't know what it is about it but it looks uh like it belongs next to a golf course so uh it's good i think it looks good um the since we talked about the parking numbers that sparked a question for me i like the birming idea to sort of keep the headlights down from people walking by and keep the cars a little hidden you does leggett mccall have uh information on parking utilization of their of their buildings like if the marblehead ratio is now 1.5 uh is that last parking area by the street really like needed uh or are you anticipating overflow

[Speaker 7] (34:41 - 35:08)
i would say that it's our preference to have it we don't want to under park the site because that's going to cause us problems i think that uh one and a half spaces per unit with a mix of ones and twos i think that's probably in this location is probably a good mix um but i wouldn't we certainly wouldn't want to cause a problem by under parking it so yeah i know definitely and

[Speaker 4] (35:08 - 35:19)
it's like a it's uh an art and a science right i just that last lot on the south side of the site bugged me for some reason because it's the only basically the only one that is uh

[Speaker 7] (35:21 - 35:41)
not really visible anymore but it's still there yeah exactly why we were trying to firm it and try to hide it and screen it in landscape and i think as dad said the landscape plan will show that a little better than uh than what's shown here because the idea is to literally landscape on top which you won't see what's behind it and carry it through yeah just to screen that parking

[Speaker 4] (35:41 - 35:56)
lot okay great uh have you had discussion i know that he can be notorious about moving things have you had discussions with him yet about moving that bus stop like 30 feet in front of me

[Speaker 2] (35:56 - 36:27)
i don't think we have yet no um okay it it it seems obvious that it would be better to have the bus not block the you know this entrance way but i i hear you that we we did get we did look up the mbta standards and and all that i realized there's a process there that will will encourage forward or maybe engage in that process sooner than later yeah no i was just noting there

[Speaker 4] (36:29 - 38:06)
hello uh okay while i'm on landscape stuff i was thinking i love that you've incorporated some of our comments previously and i was wondering about um maybe the landscape plan that circle there with the now the monument uh i'd be interested to see a blow-up of that you know does it include things like uh benches for residents uh and to make it a nice park that's not really a park but green space that uh people use rather than it just looking green and i guess my same comment would be uh you know i'd love to see what the actual landscape plan is for the i guess the new triangular green space that was created behind the pool i'd be interested to see what that is yeah and uh my previous comment from last meeting about any pedestrians coming from the tedesco direction having connection to building two three is the back one that you're not cursors over that's three two sorry depends on which drives you yeah but yeah i understand you this one yeah that's the that's the only comment that's uh that's still hanging out for me is that if someone is gonna go from that direction they're just gonna walk across the parking lot and that's fine you know i tend to prefer separated access for pedestrians

[Speaker 2] (38:06 - 38:41)
cars to parking lots yeah we did consider that and we felt like that this wandering path you know while not i understand not as direct as walking through the parking lot we just i think our sense was that the that the traffic coming the pedestrian traffic coming from this direction will be relatively small compared to certainly folks coming from the the commercial zone and so hopefully i mean if you're dog walking i'd like to think you'd take this this nice path and come along and go in this way as opposed to walking through this this parking lot that was our

[Speaker 4] (38:41 - 39:29)
thinking at least no i hear you and i think on the one hand you're probably right that the traffic may be lower and i didn't recall seeing uh analysis of other pedestrian bike numbers in this study i can't remember the traffic study um i'm sorry what was your question i'm just i'm i'm using here basically my point is that pedestrians are going to take the shortest possible walking route so they're going to walk across the parking lot um and uh what else i can i can stop for now let someone else chime in thank you yeah dad or dave or bill i think you

[Speaker 12] (39:29 - 39:34)
answered this last week um how many eev stations or charging stations do we have on site for

[Speaker 2] (39:34 - 40:12)
residents i wanted to say that it was 15 and that we would have a conduit buried to have capable to have complete um ability to have ev okay i i will make a note that our plans if they haven't um we can proactively mark the locations fire departments like them right near entrances on outside walls um so we'll make sure that we show them and where where we intend to put them i'm i honestly don't remember whether you showed them proactively or not okay that would be helpful

[Speaker 4] (40:12 - 40:45)
thank you sure i had another question not really or pedestrians or cars uh the back to the landscape uh do you like it mccall probably wouldn't know the answer to this do you have an idea of the demographics of the folks that would live here is it a few single folks or young couples or empty nesters or is there a mix i think it's a mix yeah i mean i think it's going to be

[Speaker 7] (40:45 - 40:56)
empty nesters or uh could be uh young professionals um but i i don't think we're going to have a lot of families here i think this is young professionals or empty nesters

[Speaker 4] (40:56 - 41:18)
my guess gotcha yeah that was my that's where i was going with that because the amenity spaces are geared towards those folks and not necessarily towards families right that would be uh you know looking at those those green spaces you have you know how are they programmed and so okay that makes

[Speaker 1] (41:18 - 45:51)
yeah yeah um pat or dave or bill any other questions i could question myself um i've noticed um earlier um and pat i don't know if you just misspoke or not but there was a mention of um 14 affordable units but um we have to have 17 affordably now he said 17 the plan says 17 okay yes yes all right then it was just me i didn't hear it's probably it's probably my blurry it's not and it's not just it's just the zoom it's it's fine i just wanted to be sure sure um in addition to the um the uh four corners sort of monument thing at the that park we're all three pounds um we had talked about doing some kind of a historic marker that indicated that the location of the general glover farm and to that end um a couple of things number one um the historical commission will be uh i don't know if they reviewed this at their last meeting but um i am going to reach out to them to talk about um i as we had mentioned before perhaps you're taking a look at the building i know we were trying to organize a site visit not quite sure what happened um with that but in terms of that and i you know i recognize that you know the building's not in great shape and all of that so um that's uh understood the same time in addition to to figuring out some kind of a site visit i thought there also might be an opportunity to to stake out the um the property um and i don't mean it has to be you know story storyboard staking out but um but to stake out the properties that we could actually identify the tree line that that will remain and that which needs to come down which i think would might be an important thing to kind of get a grasp on um prior to the the work getting done um and uh in addition to that um we want to see a demolition plan which i know there are some notes on that in the site plan but we may want to see something a little um a little more fulsome than that with you know again we can make some notes and put this in with our our comments recommendations our package that'll go to you prior to next month's meeting um also notice that we did get comments from the fire department saying that the swanstead fire department and marvelhead fire department are going to be working together on this and they'll be reviewing it together in terms of making sure that yeah the fireboxes are where they want it of course the building should be fully sprinkled i'm sure you assume um but also um in terms of access for all of the equipment that they have make sure everybody's truck makes the corner and so forth so um that was also um that was also included so um i can you know try to to speak with um with w pots and just make sure that we are you know what the the timeline is for them to to review that um and obviously we have a number of other committees that that need to get these plans um hopefully they've already been distributed and we expect comments back from all those committees within 60 days i'm hoping we'll have it sooner than 60 days i'm going to try to get information back as soon as possible as i'd like to include as much and as many comments as we possibly can prior to our november meeting to be as productive as we can um so um i love idea of the stone pillars for the bus stop i hope that worked out with uh mbta um let's see

[Speaker 7] (45:54 - 46:09)
so um angela just if i could jump in a couple of things so we did uh we were in front of the historical commission uh sam was there and can fill you in on that and i think there was talk about having a site walk with them as well i don't know if you want i presume you'd want to have a

[Speaker 1] (46:09 - 46:19)
if you want to do one together i don't think we could oh we could i mean i think we think if we could coordinate it if we can coordinate it once i walk that'd be fabulous sure i mean i would

[Speaker 7] (46:19 - 46:26)
definitely make you know the effort to do that so and i don't know sam is that scheduled at this

[Speaker 13] (46:26 - 47:13)
point or no it was uh it was discussed and uh would be happy to do that and coordinate it and might make sense to do it all at one time um we were in front of the historic commission about two weeks ago planning to be back in front of historic mission probably at their december meeting not their november meeting they were asking about the uh the existing structures obviously on site um and and we are providing them with some information about the deteriorated condition of those structures and and whether any of them um could be moved from the site uh as well as um some of the artifacts that that may exist uh that folks have asked about in in those buildings as as we prepare for demo being able to maybe uh preserve or save some of

[Speaker 1] (47:13 - 47:49)
those um to move off site right and again um i'm sure you're aware we've um been in they're also in touch with um with becky uh current and marvel head so i you know she's said that they they coordinate efforts like that on a regular basis so i know they'd be impressive in uh you know working with the slums guide historical commission to um either archive some of that stuff or use it in their existing historic properties and and so forth so i'm glad thank you very much for letting me know i wasn't aware that you'd been at their meeting so

[Speaker 7] (47:49 - 48:06)
that's really good news um so do you want to uh in the interest of trying to get you out there before the november meeting do you want to do you want to schedule a site walk and then we can see if the historical commission folks can join but i mean obviously you're you're going to be critical

[Speaker 1] (48:06 - 48:20)
to getting that scheduled and if they can yeah i would yes i i'd i'd be happy to um i'll be happy to try to move that ahead i'll get marcy to coordinate okay and um i'll get on that okay

[Speaker 7] (48:20 - 49:04)
in terms of uh you know you raised a couple of other issues there so the tree cutting plan um i think you know safe to say most of the trees are going to be removed i don't know if there's anything that's really that is significant that the trees along the border with tedesco most of those remain but most of those are on the tedesco side of the fence so there's a fence site walk you'll be able to see when we do that there's a there's a physical fence there and for the most part anything in board of that would be removed and anything out port will stay and yes we are intending to have a certainly a marker to reflect the historic nature of the

[Speaker 2] (49:04 - 49:58)
site so and angela the um the trees are well marked on the survey and we can do an assessment there's there's some on the corner that are almost savable but they're just you know when you look at them individually they're they're not it's they're not ideal there's a couple together that might it might might be okay on the corner the the multi-town corner there that yeah yeah i walked the site specifically to look at those to see you know to my eye there's i was on the fence i thought more likely than not they weren't they weren't um yeah worthy but that said i'm not a landscape architect and our landscape architect maybe in conjunction with an arborist might take a peek at them um yeah because they are they are together they're they form something but when you

[Speaker 1] (49:58 - 51:47)
look at some of them individually they're they're they're tough understood yep okay so um so that being said i you know what i'd like to do is um see if there is anything else hold on if i didn't just see um so let's start commission right so you know i need to get to all the other town communities make sure we get full set of comments um we talked about the fire already the sprinkler um so i think one of the you know one of the biggest things we're going to be looking at is the the traffic study in terms of um peer review which focused a lot on pedestrian circulation which is is really going to be important here as you know we've discussed in the past we see this site as you know as much as it's yes it's 144 units and there are you know x number of cars and estimated number of trips per day and so on and so forth i still think we're going to have a lot of pedestrian activity simply because it's so easy to you know cross the street and you know go out to eat or take groceries i'm going to the drugstore so i think that the pedestrian crossings are going to be really important and and um so i know that the uh just you know ada access within the site and then ample pedestrian crossings and sidewalks around the site um are are going to be that would be a little tricky too because of how congested that intersection gets so that's a lot for us to discuss as we go further down the road but i think we've got a lot of good information um right now to to move along with

[Speaker 4] (51:49 - 52:04)
angela can i say something on that please so uh i read the peer review portion of the traffic study and uh has that been made available so i get my call and you have it yeah our traffic engineer

[Speaker 7] (52:04 - 52:09)
is reviewing it and we'll be able to comment on that uh when at the next meeting so okay perfect

[Speaker 4] (52:09 - 52:42)
that's what i was going to ask yeah i'd be interested to see your response yeah yeah yeah awesome and then specifically where uh the mouse was at that intersection you know which i think is mostly right um just yeah the sale is right there salem the swamp is right there so what has your dialogue been with salem on this project if you don't mind has there been anything uh substantial about the yeah the engineer met with

[Speaker 2] (52:43 - 53:13)
with some of the officials on sale and i think the dpw or the engineering department and and gave them a full set of the plans and told them uh and explain the project to them in his way to get some feedback from them similar to you know we're waiting to get feedback from from swamp scott and marvel had this in the same way to give them some time to look them over and um i i didn't get the sense that there was any concern just that you know it was explained and they wanted to take a

[Speaker 1] (53:13 - 53:27)
okay okay okay um do we are they aware of the timeline that we're looking at in terms of the review not that we haven't don't have enough time i'm just wondering if they're aware of our

[Speaker 2] (53:28 - 53:53)
that's a great question i wasn't in on the meeting to know but i can follow up with our engineer to okay to tell them that we're looking you know for some feedback i right there's um not so much happening in salem but there's but still they have the right over and and i think we're tying into one of the one of the drain lines so okay is it my

[Speaker 1] (53:53 - 56:41)
understanding that that piece of land is in salem but owned by marvel head or is in my totally off base about that no it's owned by salem it is owned by salem okay good um okay yeah thank you anybody else have a question okay so seeing none um i don't know that this is a public hearing even though we're not reviewing anything i certainly would open it up to the public for any questions um or comments at this point but again we won't be voting on anything here tonight however um if you're in the audience and you would like to speak uh please raise your hand and marissa can give you access i am not seeing any hands raised okay all right then well seeing no no takers um then i believe we can agree that we will um we will continue to look at this that within the next 30 days as per our um design standards and our our zoning um we will put together we'll make sure that all of the all of the other boards and committees are notified we'll try to solicit as much feedback within 30 days that we can from them they do have 60 days to respond to us um and we will also continue our individual reviews of traffic and and and uh stormwater oh and hopefully we'll have our peer review for the stormwater by then as well um what i will do immediately is speak to margie and coordinate a site visit and um do that with the historical commission that hopefully as many people as possible can attend if they would like um and i think that uh pretty much wrapped it up for now um i'm hoping that we um will see this get approved by the the um district attorney's office um excuse me attorney general's office by the 9th so we shouldn't have any issues moving forward with our timeline at our november 14th so if there are no more questions then i think we can just say thank you and we will continue to communicate and be in touch and see you on the 14th

[Speaker 7] (56:41 - 56:46)
sounds great thank you you're welcome and thank you as well have a great night thanks very much

[Speaker 1] (56:46 - 57:22)
for your time okay good night all right so our next item on the agenda is an anr um just approval not required application for endorsement of a plan believed not to require approval uh by susan mercott nominee trust and mark and diane karnitsky properties are located at 149 and 15 brown road and mark did you want to you are good how are you

[Speaker 10] (57:23 - 58:33)
thank you uh angela um members of the board my name is mark karnitsky i live with my wife at 15 brown road and my a butter to my rear and neighbor susan mercott she's on this call as well and miss mercott has graciously agreed her and her husband to sell a parcel of 354 square feet at the rear of my property to my wife and i so as part of that we needed to create a separate non-buildable lot for purposes of a deed to be able to have a conveyance um and sale of parcel a from um susan and her husband uh to myself and my wife so that's what we're here for i have a mylar that's been prepared by um mike giuliano and if you have any questions i'd be happy to answer them okay thank you so what we're doing

[Speaker 1] (58:33 - 1:00:09)
here essentially is just changing the size of two lots and um by selling one little piece of land to you it changes the size of your lot and it changes the size of his and mercott's lot it does not however change um the frontage or the access or anything else about these properties which is why the approval is not required for the subdivision control law um and essentially the reason that their petitioner is here before us is so that we can formally say yes we endorse this um plan and once we do that we uh sign we each will have to go into town hall and sign a form that um that states that we endorse the planning board endorses the plan i have no questions with this in my mind this is a very simple um very simple petition um and i'll open it up to the rest of the board if you have any questions seeing none can i take that as an assumption that everyone is in agreement that this plan does not require approval and that the board is willing to vote to endorse this approval not required plan so i'll make a motion if there are no questions and i don't want to rush anybody ahead if there are no questions just one quick

[Speaker 6] (1:00:09 - 1:00:25)
sorry can you scroll the screen up a little bit is the other a butter there's no reason why the other butter down below which about are you talking about though formerly beverly con it's

[Speaker 10] (1:00:25 - 1:01:54)
presently of beverly con right well they have that butter's not affected she had no no comment well on an anr plan it's an administrative the petitioner is generally entitled to the action and it's one of these um procedures where it's not it doesn't even require anything more than being placed on the agenda it doesn't require notice to a butters yep okay so so miss murcott's free to to or anyone is free to um to take a parcel from their land so long as they don't create a zoning non-conformity and you can see that miss murcott's lot is one of the larger lots in our town so she's clearly not creating any zoning non-conformity and you could create a zoning non-conformity the planning board wouldn't bless that it would then be the zoning board that would have to approve any zoning relief that's needed so sometimes you see that where someone creates an r and doesn't leave themselves with enough frontage or lot area and thereby we call it infectious invalidity where they're not blessing each parcel that may need zoning relief but here it's it's a small piece that's not affecting zoning whatsoever right but essentially

[Speaker 1] (1:01:54 - 1:03:02)
even if it did the planning board still if if nothing else if the access to the lot doesn't change and the planning board can endorse the plan and when we do there is a paragraph on the mylar that we sign that says that our endorsement does not imply that the lot is in zoning conformance so that allows someone to create an a on r and then like mark said if they need to go to zone for relief they would but in this case it does not create a non-conformance either okay thank you um any other questions about that no given that explanation i'm good okay so can i make a motion to um vote to endorse um and uh uh do we have a number of a number on this didn't put on the agenda but it's nr 22-01 so can i have a motion to um i guess to endorse uh nr 2202 did you say

[Speaker 12] (1:03:02 - 1:03:13)
i'm sorry one i'm happy to make that motion to approve nr 22-01 to endorse endorse yep a second

[Speaker 1] (1:03:14 - 1:03:34)
okay all in favor i'm an eye angela dave hi hi okay mike hi bill hi and ted hi okay so we'll each of us will need to go into town hall and my um is the

[Speaker 10] (1:03:34 - 1:03:42)
mylar there mark yes i dropped it off and i know from it used to be they needed a special pen to

[Speaker 15] (1:03:42 - 1:03:53)
sign but my they're supposed to have it there usually they have it in the clerk's office so i might have it in my cabinet too i'll have a kind of thing right okay yeah it's a special

[Speaker 10] (1:03:53 - 1:04:00)
yeah not any great rush for anyone that's that's okay take some time to get there that's all right

[Speaker 1] (1:04:00 - 1:04:23)
we'll be really well i'm sure we can all find a some time to get in there um within the next a few days okay well appreciate it very much our pleasure thanks very much all right thanks so much have a great night okay bye-bye okay and marissa you said we had some minutes to approve

[Speaker 3] (1:04:23 - 1:04:28)
thank you um i don't know if you all got a chance to read them before or i can pull them up now

[Speaker 4] (1:04:28 - 1:04:37)
whatever i did not signage thing get taken off of our plate sorry sorry no more signage

[Speaker 1] (1:04:38 - 1:04:44)
wasn't there a signage thing on our thing by mistake wasn't it and it didn't seem like

[Speaker 3] (1:04:44 - 1:05:01)
something we should be looking at i get margie's on i can have margie speak to that um in a bit if you want to do the minutes first and then we can talk about that it wasn't it's not a petition it was kind of just like a looking at a potential signage but it's up to you

[Speaker 1] (1:05:01 - 1:05:10)
your discretion so um look at something when it's filed and until then i'm i don't see the point

[Speaker 11] (1:05:10 - 1:05:46)
okay um i will hold on let me load the minutes to do where are they um oops you guys not cooperating tonight okay and i can zoom in um so i mean i'm really backlogging here

[Speaker 1] (1:05:46 - 1:06:14)
but um right i'm not having had these prior for that uh pine street so um yeah um tell me when to scroll whatever you keep going i don't want to rush anybody but you can

[Speaker 14] (1:06:14 - 1:06:30)
i'm fine uh okay january february 8th the uh the february 8th one

[Speaker 4] (1:06:33 - 1:06:49)
the motion was continued to the february meeting at the bottom oh i see probably meant to be march oh yep okay i'll change that i'm scrolling on my own time right over here i might be

[Speaker 11] (1:06:49 - 1:07:26)
slightly ahead of you that's fine um if i go too fast please stop me this is march i believe this is board take action these are all the conditions that the board imposed we're in march march 14th yep

[Speaker 3] (1:07:29 - 1:07:39)
i forgot we had two meetings in march yeah yeah did i have the other march minutes on here

[Speaker 11] (1:07:40 - 1:08:48)
yeah okay yeah march 21st yeah this was the special site uh special meeting for the school okay this is when we had our all right oh that has changed of course so we have new regulations uh this i need to

[Speaker 3] (1:08:48 - 1:09:03)
change because right okay yeah that can come up yep and then um i have to do the main minutes june and july i was not here the june minute the june meeting i believe you guys met outdoors i

[Speaker 1] (1:09:03 - 1:09:09)
know it's oh i wrote the minutes for that okay so i have those and i think i sent them to everybody

[Speaker 3] (1:09:09 - 1:09:30)
but um and i'll send them to you i have them okay and then i don't i wasn't here for the july meeting as well huh why did we do that time maybe we just record i hope we record i'm sure it's recorded and i can go back and watch through okay i believe margie um led you guys in that meeting denison

[Speaker 1] (1:09:30 - 1:09:45)
right okay this is pete denison that's right and that bad letter went out to them and they're supposedly going to zoning i guess yeah they already had one meeting before zoning

[Speaker 3] (1:09:45 - 1:09:51)
um and they're coming back tomorrow night okay um

[Speaker 1] (1:09:53 - 1:10:14)
okay and then they're going they're going to zoning as well yeah not until november though okay um and then other business all right we didn't do anything about that yet um

[Speaker 8] (1:10:15 - 1:10:25)
hmm good to remember way back on lodge road for a sec so was the determination there that

[Speaker 3] (1:10:25 - 1:12:09)
it's going before yeah the planning board doesn't have yeah uh so it is under the jurisdiction of zba and the zba does need to issue would likely need to issue a variance in order to determine that it is a notable lot um what happened um mr dementor was right in everything he said the or the dates were all off right yeah the dates were all off in um in a letter that was referenced or that was written by attorney lynch and then was agreed upon by former inspector baldacci um what happened was the new set of zoning bylaws were passed at the 1948 town meeting and those were the bylaws that established dimensional requirements um specifically lot area and frontage and then the subdivision for this lot on lodge road was brought before the planning board in 1949 um in august of 1949 after the zoning bylaws were passed what we're trying to figure out is or what the petitioner is trying to figure out is um it's not clear on whether or not this was a subdivision or an anr um by done by the planning board back then and if it was a subdivision because it does affect i don't know whatever it was it created two non-conforming lots that's right and one of them already had a structure on it so it was grandfathered in that is i think eight lodge road as of today and then there's this zero lodge road um which is undersized so you know it's undersized and it's lacking in frontage right um so if it were if it

[Speaker 1] (1:12:09 - 1:12:53)
were created um under separate ownership prior to the date that they had given us then that's a you know that would have been we would have been able to um you know look at it as it would have been able to be treated as uh just a site plan for an undersized lot but it didn't um it kind of had happened the year after that particular zoning change was made so it no longer benefits from the grandfathering of the undersized lot so now it's nothing but an undersized lot who where the owner wants to build something like it so they have to go to zoning for zoning needs

[Speaker 3] (1:12:53 - 1:13:29)
and it's not even um they it wouldn't even be a special permit it would likely have to be a variance because it's not a protected lot because there was no structure on it when it was right subdivided it's just plain old undersized right at what meeting is that going to be a zoning board or when november 15th yeah we don't have a full voting board tomorrow night we only have four members and it's not in their best interest to see what will likely be a variance before not a full voting board so they are continuing to november with my understanding that um i'm

[Speaker 1] (1:13:29 - 1:14:47)
sorry we should go ahead and finish with this sorry oh no go ahead um this isn't about the minute this is about another property so okay throughout the minutes talk i think that was it that was all i had for minutes okay so we had january february march april may we were missing june simply because um well i can give them to you and we can vote on them next time yeah we're missing may wait i don't have may um so we're just missing so it's july january february march april september and september okay um can we have a motion to approve those minutes with the corrections the little edits that we gave marissa which was just some i guess it was just stuff that been copied and pasted the wrong way template issues okay all in favor oh we need a second i'll say i guess i can second it why not i can second it and all in favor i okay okay all right you're approved so i'll get to the um i'll send the two minutes okay um i understand that pine street was sold

[Speaker 3] (1:14:49 - 1:14:54)
uh under purchase and sale hasn't officially been sold there are people that bought it

[Speaker 1] (1:14:54 - 1:15:01)
this avery avery they they built the avery down across from the cemetery yeah it did be as the

[Speaker 8] (1:15:02 - 1:15:08)
properties wait which i missed which property i missed the name there pine street good old

[Speaker 1] (1:15:08 - 1:16:08)
pine street first of all there was they changed it to another unit down there and and they got rid of the the retail and changed it to residential never came back to us and now a new owner bought it apparently paid a premium of like you know the guy who sold it made like a overpaying care this guy ended up making another million dollars selling it so it's going to be interesting to see how um how any of this becomes you know affordable in any way i just i don't understand it i mean it's the craziest thing i've ever heard so does this does now i understand that the building permit has not been issued so what does that mean do do they i mean since there is no building permit does the the the plan review just transfer to another owner yeah the the zba decision would

[Speaker 3] (1:16:08 - 1:16:19)
transfer to the new property owner um and it looks like their intent would be to continue with the project as was approved by the zoning board they don't have as of now any intent to

[Speaker 1] (1:16:19 - 1:16:41)
amend the project that's very that's um okay this was in fact fine that really serious okay um i don't have any other comments about that um anybody have any issues that they'd

[Speaker 4] (1:16:41 - 1:16:50)
like to bring up you know we have a special town meeting sorry i was gonna say there was

[Speaker 3] (1:16:50 - 1:17:15)
another note on the email about adu yes heidi is here from the swamp scout senior center um and she i'm gonna promote her to panelist right um i must have the wrong agenda i i sent it in an email i was um i don't know if since this is just a discussion i mean i don't know if this

[Speaker 1] (1:17:15 - 1:17:29)
is something that can be just no it's fine it's completely fine i just i must be looking at the um the one before you amended it so i apologize for not um not picking up on that come from so many

[Speaker 9] (1:17:29 - 1:19:08)
amended agendas in the last you can keep them straight hi heidi hi hi for those of you that don't know me my name is heidi weir and i'm the director of aging services in swamp scott and i'm kind of an ex officio for the committee for swamp scott for all ages and um actually bill quinn is on the the team with me um we've been working to try and create an aging friendly swamp scott for our folks as we continue to age um we're all aging and that's a good thing um so um swamp scott right now is about one quarter over the age of 65 and within the next eight years will be one third over the age of 65 and so we're working to do a number of different things and one of those is looking at how we can make housing more um acceptable and easy for people to stay in as they age in place and we feel that um looking at some of the different um planning and zoning things we can maybe create more adus or make adus more acceptable for folks to be able to create in swamp scott so that our folks can age in place in town and i'm sure bill is a whole lot more eloquent about this but all i wanted to do tonight is maybe see if maybe we can put it on an agenda for a future meeting and start to look at what the swan's gift for all ages committee can help to create maybe a community forum or community education to maybe look at the whole issue and educate folks about what real adus really is and what

[Speaker 6] (1:19:08 - 1:23:28)
they are so that's what i got right so i can just add a little bit of background color so we've had um we've had it sort of on our radar on and off or in the edges of our radar or probably a year or more um we've made some progress on the bylaw changes and there's still a lot of work to go and it seems like every time we have a warrant closed we take it out the last minute because of some either perceived or real uh fear of something and if i remember last time must have been the last time meeting it was that there was a question about attached versus not attached buildings um and i think that's where we're at so there's a lot of fear around adus for some reason and i'm not quite exactly sure why uh swamps gets full of them most of them are you know just there and people don't talk about them much what the all ages committee's hope was that we could kind of bring those to be acceptable and that would increase the availability of those because right now there's some pretty strict regulations about whether it has to be a family member or handicapped person or the size restrictions and whether or not you can build to it or not so the intention originally years ago was to make that a little bit more palatable for people to number one want to do that uh and number two encourage them to do that um and that's kind of the initial goal so second thing is that swamps that's full of large houses with people who have owned them for many years and the adu bylaw also allows people to move into that accessory unit and rent out the remainder of their property so it doesn't have to be the primary unit that that is the adu the homeowner could live in a smaller handicap accessible lower unit and rent out more of their larger property that would make it first of all easier for people to stay there age in place and you know get a little return on investment from their uh years of putting money into their homes and it would also kind of just open up more stock in general so in order to do that portion of it some of the restrictions about the allowable sizes of the units were a little bit over restrictive i think at one point it was 800 square feet i think the last version i saw was a thousand square feet but if i owned a 5000 square foot home and i wanted to move into the accessory department and rent the rest of my home it certainly wouldn't be a thousand square feet or less so there should be some sort of you know either leeway for homeowners that have a larger home to have a larger adu that they could move into if that were appropriate and then as far as the attached versus unattached the perception there at least from what i can gather in talking to people around town is that people would build structures on their property or convert an old garage on their property and then every house or every property in town would suddenly have an adu or yurt or some sort of a thing in their backyard all over town without control that would ultimately get used for airbnb so i don't know how we kind of calm those fears but those are the challenges that the adu bylaw was at least facing last i heard if that's wrong anybody jump in correct i'm not sure marissa where the latest draft is at i know there are some changes that we're going to make with the building inspector at our last go-around who was i think his first day so i'm not sure if we've gotten there yet but that's my recollection of where adus have come from

[Speaker 1] (1:23:29 - 1:27:38)
yeah i that's what i remember as well and when you say you know fear is a lot you know basically a lot of the what we pick up are from what's happened in other communities and you know the sort of knee-jerk fear that that people have here one of which was when we talked about detached units you know that immediately implied to people well that's the end of single family zoning in other words you know one house per lot is gone so we essentially abolished that and that was you know so we thought okay so if you don't want to do that plus the notion of building a separate structure you know which would be someone you know foundation and you know plumbing and heating and wiring would become so expensive that it ceases to be an affordable you know dwelling unit and is more likely to be you know it's not going to be someplace that's going to be affordable it's not converting somebody's garage we met with sort of the thought line behind it i remember having a discussion about this in so like every time we bring it up there's something something gets thrown out there so i remember at our june meeting having a discussion about trying to do a certain zone a certain area in town with ad you know allowing adus and we talked about the allstate district simply because there are so many big houses there with beautiful carriage houses that are already existing and wouldn't it make perfect sense for people to be able to convert a carriage house into you know and well there was an existing detached garage wouldn't that make sense i mean i remember having that conversation and it would almost be like a way to um you know allow something to happen and in in a way that would make the public sort of comfortable with the idea of seeing that oh you know the earth hasn't sky didn't fall because we allowed adus in this particular district you know it might you know here are some really you know big old homes that have a garage or extra space or whatever so the idea was almost to to create a a district where we could kind of easily test it out because of the nature of some of the many of the homes that exist there so that's what i i remember sort of leaving it there um not just that idea but that was something that was that was brought up at the time so um you know that way we just we had some existing building that could be part of the house that could be converted but it had many structures that would lend themselves to be converted into accessory dwelling unit and it would kind of be easy to just sort of roll that out and then you know if that works then you know you're to say well this worked out really well and here's how we did this and um you know just a way to introduce it so i think i happen to think that was a good way to approach it because it's a it's such a big bylaw to pass um and there are a lot of issues about how do we control it i mean if how do we make sure or for the best of our ability how do we make sure that this actually you know is going to help people that we wanted to help is there some way that you know that we can um there's no way we can guarantee it but it's some way we can kind of clarify the mission of what this is all about so that it doesn't become just a way for somebody to you know rent out an apartment to a stranger or you know like you had

[Speaker 3] (1:27:38 - 1:28:05)
mentioned a short-term rental or something um i think that's where heidi comes in and i can sort of sort of shift the conversation and say that it's not just for short-term rentals it's not just for putting your house up on airbnb not just for you know transgender vacationers it's it's sustainable for lifelong residents of swampscott right well and i also i feel like the biggest the

[Speaker 8] (1:28:05 - 1:29:07)
most important distinction certainly as far as public opinion goes is existing but limiting it to existing structures versus allowing new construction i don't i think that is more important than this attached versus unattached idea i don't think that i agree with you it makes a difference so to to me and i think i feel that this is along the lines of what we talked about in in june to me if we limit it to existing i don't know why we would also just limit it to olmstead because it just feels it feels very piecemeal yeah in a year or two i mean we would love i would love the idea of like tons of people taking advantage of this in reality if we limit it to olmstead maybe a person or two will pick up on it in the next couple of years and it's you know like we're just we're not going to see there's not going to be a ton of data points from i mean there could be but i think it is more likely that this takes a long time to kind of start trickling

[Speaker 6] (1:29:07 - 1:29:14)
through as people need to do renovations and all that so because you can't even change your windows

[Speaker 8] (1:29:14 - 1:29:19)
to me i would i would like to see it open to the town but limited to existing sorry what bill

[Speaker 6] (1:29:20 - 1:29:23)
especially at olmstead you can't even change your windows in olmstead right i just think

[Speaker 8] (1:29:24 - 1:29:58)
good point i think it's it sounds good the idea of limiting it to olmstead the the the purpose the intent behind it is good but i think in practice it's just going to mean that we don't see much movement at all so i would i'd be in favor i think of going forward with this for the whole town but you know pushing hard on the fact that we're not talking about new construction we're not talking about everybody in town all of a sudden having two structures on their property we're talking about making optimal use of existing two structure situations right or creating a unit

[Speaker 3] (1:29:58 - 1:30:43)
within your home that you have and there's there's already it's already written into the bylaw that an accessory dwelling does not constitute a two-family unit that's why it's accessory to the principal use or the principal structure right i just we just the zoning board last month just approved an in-house adu in the olmstead district and when i you know sent out the abutter notices one of the abutters of this house or this petitioner reached out and said is two family zoning allowed in the olmstead district and i you know i attached the piece of the bylaw that says accessory dwelling units do not constitute or establish two family or multi-family

[Speaker 1] (1:30:43 - 1:30:51)
homes so how do we and the only way we distinguish it is that they are all on the same utility bills

[Speaker 3] (1:30:51 - 1:31:27)
or what all the utilities have to be connected to all the same and is that the only thing that distinguishes it from i think that the it has to be the same address you cannot establish a separate address number um i think the limitation in gross square gross square excuse me gross floor area um and i think i mean those are really the only three things i can think of what's the limit on gross floor area right now it's 800 which is pretty easily achievable

[Speaker 1] (1:31:27 - 1:31:34)
i mean look at the the plans we just looked at for the glover the one bedroom apartments were

[Speaker 3] (1:31:34 - 1:33:45)
750 square feet right and that's and that's gfa you know so if you're looking at a basement or an attic or more so basement than attic if you have an old home and you have like a boiler room downstairs or something that's not going to contribute to your gfa it can only be inhabitable space so if you have maybe a basement that's a thousand square feet but 200 of it is taken up by utility space of some kind then um you know you just need to prove that to the zba or if in-house adus become permissible by right you would just have to prove that to the building department um an interesting um argument has come up before there's any word of appeals we currently have a petition right now for the homeowner at 8 stern street who was looking to build an addition for his mother-in-law and um it's not an accessory addition it's just a an addition at the back of the house with the bedroom because she is 91 and can't do stairs anymore but the putting the addition on the back of the house brings him into non-compliance with respect to the distance between the principal structure and the detached garage which cannot be any less than 10 feet so in or in the only way around that is getting a variance but the board proposed a creative solution where if so the homeowner is constructing a breezeway between the new addition and the garage effectively making it one giant principal structure even though it brings the garage into further non-conformity because it's now part of the structure so it's it's limited to greater setbacks than what an accessory structure is however because the garage is not actually changing position on the lot it's the board is likely going to determine that it's not making the non-conformity any more detrimental than it already is so it's an extension of a pre-existing non-conformity but that is not any more detrimental so he is building a breezeway making one entire principal structure so if somebody else were to do that on their lot build a breezeway between their house and detached garage they could throw up an adu on that garage if they wanted to and it would just be an in-house adu

[Speaker 8] (1:33:47 - 1:33:53)
right so if we pass this bylaw then we're just eliminating this silly requirement that a

[Speaker 3] (1:33:53 - 1:33:58)
breezeway be built essentially you know at that point really what's the difference

[Speaker 4] (1:34:00 - 1:34:02)
um your example makes my brain hurt

[Speaker 1] (1:34:04 - 1:34:09)
now we've done i remember doing that you know a couple of times years ago yeah

[Speaker 4] (1:34:09 - 1:35:18)
a couple houses sorry i just wanted to say something um there's two things we didn't mention that were also uh in my mind holding this up one was precedent examples from other towns about how they're crafting their bylaws i know marblehead has been working on one for some time and i don't know if that's complete the second thing was data and you know that part of the discussion about uh everybody can convert their garage into an adu the second this comes uh law part of the bylaw is well how many of those are there in town uh are there 50 are there uh 200 you know so like that would the data would be helpful to uh back up the not the fear but just the justification for how many of these might actually be built that's in my mind good for public outreach on both i think there's a lot already that we but

[Speaker 1] (1:35:18 - 1:35:42)
you know it's always been this notion that somehow it was illegal especially if there was a separate entrance so you know um i just think there's a yeah i do think there's a there are a lot but it's because they're not they're all sort of you know nobody talks about them i don't think it's very hard it's very easy to get a count oh no i'm not asking i'm not saying a requesting

[Speaker 4] (1:35:42 - 1:35:58)
existing i'm saying like for like the detached garages in town oh how many of those oh i see a survey of sorts right yeah could be done right how many attached attached or detached

[Speaker 3] (1:36:00 - 1:36:05)
talking about or detached i think how many detached garages there are in town

[Speaker 4] (1:36:06 - 1:36:34)
yeah that could be converted so what would prevent you from building a detached garage is there a new construction well i guess i guess what dave was saying is that the existing versus new construction would be sort of aligned potentially right dave am i right so new construction adus would not be allowed existing conversions would be allowed yes but

[Speaker 8] (1:36:34 - 1:36:42)
what if you who built a garage how long would that have to be a garage for before it could be

[Speaker 1] (1:36:42 - 1:38:01)
converted to an adu right but here's the other point if you're going to be very i can't think of well i can't think of any examples of someone that just decided to build a garage and didn't actually want to attest to their house i mean you know the the years of houses coming with garages built and that was like the 1930s right or 40s you built a yeah you had like a colonial house and the garage is in the back but anyone who i mean it doesn't make sense to not attach a garage to your house now nowadays i guess not only from setbacks you know that's going to give you the you know it's going to minimize your setbacks right because you have to the garage has to be 10 feet away and you know all that but also you know it just it's kind of a it would you know it seems like an odd thing to do it's just not the yeah that's a good point i just anymore right yeah not yet yeah i agree yeah you know and you could decide to build a and i just like stuck it 10 feet from my house well and you could um you know i don't know how

[Speaker 4] (1:38:01 - 1:38:13)
you could write it in the bylaw right but the constructability of a garage that is a garage versus the garage that's not really a garage and it's going to be an adu is going to be different right they're going to build the fenders in a little different

[Speaker 6] (1:38:18 - 1:38:21)
sorry i'm sorry plumbing you can't have a garage of plumbing

[Speaker 4] (1:38:22 - 1:38:25)
right if there's plumbing in the garage that's your clue right

[Speaker 8] (1:38:29 - 1:39:12)
well um yeah um it would be to mike's point it would be interesting to know if it's i mean i kind of feel like it's either easy to figure out or impossible to figure out um just you know how many detached garages there are in town because i mean it not everyone is going to be converted but it would give us a denominator so to speak you know how many what the available stock is um and granted that doesn't address the in-home adu but i feel like those are a little less controversial or at least they're a little less of a slippery slope in people's minds i don't know but i can run a gis search

[Speaker 3] (1:39:13 - 1:39:18)
to see how many detached structures there are i think like even if you're going to look on google

[Speaker 1] (1:39:18 - 1:39:30)
earth you could do like a grid search basically you know break it all up easily you can probably do a quick and dirty grid search on our own i think you can always also look at communities

[Speaker 9] (1:39:30 - 1:39:38)
comparable to swansgate and see those that have actually passed an adu um zoning bylaw or whatever

[Speaker 1] (1:39:38 - 1:39:44)
and and see what what's happened yeah do you know of any where they're particularly successful

[Speaker 9] (1:39:44 - 1:39:55)
heidi or he's um i wish i could tell you my memory is not there bill i thought we talked about it one of our meetings didn't we like belmont or somewhere and and and everybody was

[Speaker 6] (1:39:55 - 1:40:04)
so afraid of it and then yeah that data was somewhere and it was i believe it was

[Speaker 1] (1:40:05 - 1:40:14)
it could have been in the planning board well you know i could check with mass housing like the people that are doing our housing production plan because that's what we're about you know

[Speaker 3] (1:40:14 - 1:40:29)
mapc they're bound to have a lot of information when um martin when molly and i were working with riff rich to draft that language back in the early spring um a lot of the a lot of it we pulled

[Speaker 6] (1:40:29 - 1:40:38)
from brookline yeah okay brookline and salem i thought was in there still dealing with their

[Speaker 1] (1:40:38 - 1:40:43)
stuff i didn't think they all had passed theirs yeah maybe i'm wrong i think they did i just got

[Speaker 3] (1:40:43 - 1:41:07)
an email i mean newton is much much bigger than swamp scott but i just got an email from um a housing advocacy group in newton um to send out an email blast to the city council members to ask that they approve the adu bylaw and a lot of the reasons that they were supporting were every reason that heidi had just listed heidi and bill had just listed so we'll take a look at it let's see um

[Speaker 1] (1:41:08 - 1:42:46)
i know that it was i think it was you bill and who else was going to be working on that was it you mike so you know that's that's um that's an opportunity to have you know uh because there there are two of you you could certainly have meetings like offline and and and look up stuff but in the meantime i think what we'll do is let me see if what kind of information we can dig up i'll ask margie as well um and get some comparables and and i i think i still have some old information from when you and molly were working on that uh there were some samples that we had um and it certainly you know it should be on our agenda again i mean we should be looking at it for oh i don't know maytown meeting i'd love to say which was time to bring up zoning um you know always uh i think it's been something that like we've said it's been pushed off and pushed off just and one of the reasons quite frankly was because a lot of these zoom town meetings it's hard enough to get some you know big zoning to pass and we had other big projects like you know we had the school and then we had the you know this whole hothorn clover thing so a lot of stuff has you know got bumped um i think we also talked about doing community surveys and public outreach that's right and there was a hope that we would have you know the staff to help us do that but you know at this point we we still don't so we don't have a planner and it's

[Speaker 3] (1:42:46 - 1:43:20)
you know pete and i are um pete kane and margie and i are going to look into incorporating blockchain technology to help um gauge community input it's something that i'm not totally familiar with yet but pete and i did the same program at tufts and one of our former professors is um working on it and so um i'm going to read the information that he sent me and then he and i are going to hopefully meet with him maybe later in the week and um i can report back on that at the november

[Speaker 1] (1:43:20 - 1:44:35)
meeting to see if that is you know years ago when pete was our planner we did a lot of really successful um outreach programs of course we did them with mabt but it was it was the you know the outreach for the the master plan and for the open space plan and the housing production plan and we do you know all these great boards and stuff and you know got tremendous response from that but i understand that that's you know covid made that a lot harder and now things have um have shifted a lot people are a lot more comfortable doing you know zoom meetings online doing a lot of different things online so i think we have that's a that'd be something that'd be great to for um so let's let's leave it at that let's leave it at um you know if we did a may we wanted to shoot for may i mean we're already behind the eight ball just in terms of um you have to back it up in terms of timing and hearings and stuff like that the good news is we have a lot of information we have a draft done um we can take a look at what other communities have done and um yeah maybe you see what pete has to say about doing some kind of outreach

[Speaker 3] (1:44:35 - 1:44:51)
and in that way um marissa yeah for sure and um and i am and mike and heidi i'm healthy to have and i can't speak tonight i am happy to help organize any kind of community outreach forum

[Speaker 6] (1:44:51 - 1:45:04)
meeting have you okay so could i recommend that we get that material and put it somewhere accessible to us and to the all ages committee and we'll take it up at both ends so planning

[Speaker 3] (1:45:04 - 1:45:09)
one end and ages committee work on the other end yeah absolutely i can create a shared folder

[Speaker 1] (1:45:09 - 1:45:22)
in the one drive so why don't you do that and i i have i know i have a big big file on that i'll be happy to send over what i have i mean it might be duplicate but at least we'll know we

[Speaker 6] (1:45:22 - 1:45:40)
have everything and then somewhere along the line we should determine the drop dead dates for may time meeting when we can what our deadlines are so we know what to work toward and then we've got to start probably community outreach pretty quick to get in front of that so um okay so i'll work

[Speaker 1] (1:45:40 - 1:45:52)
with margie and marissa for that timeline okay we'll get i'll get that out marissa i'll send you what i have to put on the one drive right and um let's just all kind of dig into whatever

[Speaker 3] (1:45:52 - 1:46:17)
resources we might have and add it to that and i'll um as we maybe once we establish like a first forum date or something or if you know there's anything that we want to share online to the residents i can i'll create a web page on the planning board you know i'll make it accessible from the planning board from the community development from the swamp stop for all ages pages about adus that'll have you know any kind of readable information that people would want to

[Speaker 6] (1:46:17 - 1:46:23)
know um can i ask a really dumb question so one drive is the same thing we get the petitions on

[Speaker 3] (1:46:23 - 1:46:32)
there are no dumb questions do you have any access information with that any i can't speak

[Speaker 6] (1:46:32 - 1:46:45)
tonight any access trouble with that or i don't i just like as a it's not one of that so it won't be a community project on the website and we it can be i i think for the purposes of sharing

[Speaker 3] (1:46:45 - 1:47:05)
information amongst um you know ourselves at the board and swamps got for all ages that's the best way and then i'll leave it up to you guys to determine whatever you think is um is worthy of being put on the website so it's not anything on the website not right now i wasn't sure whether

[Speaker 6] (1:47:05 - 1:47:10)
that was the one paid feed or not so no no one drive would be called one drive would be shared

[Speaker 3] (1:47:10 - 1:47:41)
between us and then once you know community meetings and forums start happening the website can be used to post those dates those agendas if we do any presentations from those meetings those can go up on the website um you know any like kind of like easily easily readable information about adus like renderings what they would look like maybe we could put up the examples from other communities uh any surveys that we do those can go up on the website stuff like that but

[Speaker 6] (1:47:41 - 1:47:45)
heidi has a bunch of resources too that uh passed out at the last time meeting

[Speaker 1] (1:47:46 - 1:47:53)
and i have the one from aarp i think that's yeah i have that too if we can get all that stuff

[Speaker 6] (1:47:53 - 1:47:58)
on there then that would be great if you could set that up and send the link around so it'd be for

[Speaker 1] (1:47:59 - 1:48:06)
it's like yeah so that's um that's a plan thank you

[Speaker 9] (1:48:09 - 1:48:26)
i'm working with the high school students on taping and putting things on television so that our seniors that don't access um the computers can have get this gain information and gain an understanding so i'd love to have an interview up on someone on it what a great idea yeah

[Speaker 1] (1:48:26 - 1:48:45)
so excellent thank you you can actually be on like a swamp that tv program exactly and do a little now seriously do a little you know presentation on adus or you know what what is it like man just kind of keep it simple and you know stop you know we have to take it out of this

[Speaker 6] (1:48:46 - 1:48:53)
realm and make it sort of a ground down and unfortunately the public perception goes crazy

[Speaker 1] (1:48:53 - 1:48:58)
very quickly well that's why you know what how we put how we put it out there is going to be

[Speaker 4] (1:48:58 - 1:49:22)
really important um yeah you're right okay interesting follow-up um philip did pass their adu ordinance to the city council who did and i found philip did and i found i think what is a comparable community to ours with a commuter rail on a similar distance from the city conquered massachusetts allowed adu really

[Speaker 1] (1:49:23 - 1:50:08)
they do but but they're small little yeah i get it i get it makes sense that's good thank you mike thank you very much thank you and i'm i'm apologizing i had the wrong agenda and didn't have that noted so uh i'll make sure i'm more up to date next time all right well um then i think we all know what we're doing and and if we're comfortable with that then you can have a motion to adjourn unless there was anything else i don't want to

[Speaker 4] (1:50:08 - 1:50:32)
cut anybody off i don't think there was anything else is there any updates on any of the other things that we were working on the uh anything happened with the hadley or the yeah not that i'm aware of not that i'm aware of yeah you can ask more i haven't heard anything about those new properties either right

[Speaker 12] (1:50:33 - 1:50:53)
they're updating the select board on wednesday i believe about both the hawthorne and the archer street properties i'm sorry what'd you say was those the properties you were talking about mike i saw in the select board agenda on wednesday they're updating on the purchase of the um hawthorne and the archer street properties

[Speaker 1] (1:50:54 - 1:51:32)
yep thanks ted yeah well let's hope that we're able to get both the archer street properties because i i know that um we did get a um we did get a letter from bhcd i think it was saying that that um they actually did approve uh for you to be up there yeah so really um the town still wants to take the land or you know buy the land so we'll see what happens i don't know i that's no no solution yet but um

[Speaker 4] (1:51:33 - 1:51:57)
hey interesting uh what was the other thing something else all right elm street oh yeah elm street that's okay thanks i haven't heard anything about that i walk by it every day nothing sorry but i walk by it almost every day and it's just a parking lot

[Speaker 3] (1:51:58 - 1:52:09)
i believe they were issued the building permit i don't know i'll have to double check on that i know that the historical commission is still trying to figure out what to do with the pitman

[Speaker 1] (1:52:10 - 1:52:23)
roadhouse oh i think that was a uh hang up yeah because i figured it out i thought they had i thought some you know i don't know they i thought they had a plan to move it and a lot

[Speaker 3] (1:52:23 - 1:52:52)
put it in so they to my knowledge they don't yet have a lot they are working to get a lot um they don't have one yet and so that's the i think i thought there i thought there was one that wasn't that far away there's yeah it's on the hillside app and it's owned by bill demento and so i know that they're trying to get in touch with him to purchase the lot oh i thought they had

[Speaker 6] (1:52:52 - 1:53:05)
some kind of a deal with him okay hillside or hillcrest hillside that's like going by closer to like risotto's corner or turkey's corner or whatever that's called now

[Speaker 3] (1:53:05 - 1:53:10)
yeah isn't it over by cherry street ish over there

[Speaker 4] (1:53:11 - 1:53:17)
table oh yeah yeah oh my goodness i know the lot it's vacant it is making terrible

[Speaker 3] (1:53:18 - 1:53:22)
yeah it's a tiny lot it is maybe just over 4 000 square feet

[Speaker 14] (1:53:25 - 1:53:31)
yep they can move the house yeah build a garage in an airbnb

[Speaker 1] (1:53:34 - 1:53:45)
i can't imagine that that the lot is i don't know what it's worth it was a an issue of money or you know it was an issue of money really okay

[Speaker 4] (1:53:46 - 1:53:53)
yeah well well marissa does bill demento own the multi-family next to this lot as well

[Speaker 3] (1:53:54 - 1:54:01)
no i think bruce paradise does uh oh sorry next to the on hillside yeah what's the address

[Speaker 4] (1:54:02 - 1:54:13)
i don't know it's a big white building and the roof is entirely tarps no it's not a good building i can look yeah it definitely needs to be invoked by the um

[Speaker 6] (1:54:14 - 1:54:20)
oh the property does that uh does that abut the lolly's garage

[Speaker 4] (1:54:21 - 1:54:37)
no no hillside is uh off of cherry and uh cherry is behind lolly's garage so it's across the street from the housing authority property on cherry street um it

[Speaker 3] (1:54:37 - 1:54:52)
i he does not own that yeah okay he just owns the one lot and then assuming it's a two-family you said mike i think so it looks like it's 11 13 it's owned by a richard's let's

[Speaker 4] (1:54:52 - 1:55:00)
i don't know who that is um i'll be in touch with you on that one okay it's provided me

[Speaker 3] (1:55:00 - 1:55:21)
but yeah so that's what's holding up the demo because the historical commission determined it to be you know a historic structure so there's a nine-month demo delay until they can unless they figure out how to move it between now and then right can they go that's all the wires done and

[Speaker 6] (1:55:21 - 1:55:25)
stuff that's like seems like a long way to move a house i don't know yeah i think habitat for

[Speaker 3] (1:55:25 - 1:55:33)
humanity was supposed to help with that and then um i was under the impression they had a they had

[Speaker 1] (1:55:33 - 1:55:39)
something worked out so i guess i'm a little surprised um yeah i thought they had a lot too

[Speaker 3] (1:55:39 - 1:55:59)
but i've been in the works for a while so and then it looks and they're not because that house has an addition that was built after and they're not so much concerned with the addition that can go they didn't they didn't deem that part historically significant they're just concerned with the front end of the house and um it looks like margie has her hand raised i'm gonna allow

[Speaker 5] (1:55:59 - 1:58:47)
yeah hey marcie hi hi everybody can you hear me okay yes great meeting i'm happy to share with you or some additional information on it um mike the the two family that you talked about that marissa mentioned that it's owned by um mr yes he's actually an absentee landlord he lives in new york city um there that place has been deemed um uninhabitable there is no running water in there there are several building code and health code violations within the structure if you drive by it right now you will notice that there's a top roof there um the property owner historically does come by take a look at it each time the board of health and the building department has reached out to them he would state that he has contractors coming in he has been working with justina oliver from the historical commission and um you know trying to um find out if there are any programs out there that would assist him with rehabilitation um of the property um we had also put him in touch with habitat for humanity as angela and marissa had mentioned we're trying to work with them um on this um um on the property to try to find out perhaps maybe looking at two of the lots we could have we could move the historic property but yet gain more affordable units if we were to to have both of the units um the historical commission is also looking to maybe take only the historic uh the smallest section of the pitman house because there was an addition made to it so perhaps if if the historic structure is a little bit smaller maybe you could do something in the back of it where you retain the facade of the historic structure and yet add additional affordable units in the rear of the property so maybe that's not gonna happen that's interesting okay yeah so so we're looking at a variety of different options options and believe it or not uh moving homes it's it's it's been done in the past all the time there is a state um um regulations or legislation that uh mandates or requires the utility companies to uh d sort of like depower or allow the the utility companies to be able to take down the wires for the day when the homes are moved or relocated there is a company a national company that's out of new hampshire that actually does a lot of um home moving we've reached out to them we have a price proposal for them to to move the structure but yeah we're also looking doing a a true performer through the affordable housing trust fund to find out is it really worth the um to relocate the property versus building a new yeah if we were

[Speaker 6] (1:58:47 - 1:59:10)
to you know is that uh is it 30 20 23 pitman 35 pitman 35 professor one it's a nice house one on the same side as the the property the lot that's correct yeah and it's just old is that the deal that's correct and the addition on the right is the

[Speaker 1] (1:59:10 - 1:59:17)
part that doesn't isn't old yes i mean i don't know that's gonna be those houses are hurt you

[Speaker 3] (1:59:17 - 1:59:27)
know take something apart i always say i envision a house being moved i always imagine the finale of improvement

[Speaker 4] (1:59:37 - 1:59:41)
it's fascinating they put it all up on the temporary structure they jack it up they put

[Speaker 1] (1:59:41 - 1:59:53)
it on the truck and they move it so no i've seen houses moved i meant just to kind of rip off a part of it and add on to that i thought was kind of oh yeah that's done all the time too

[Speaker 4] (1:59:53 - 2:00:10)
there's a really good example in uh cambridge the lunder art center at leslie university was done while i was in cambridge they basically hollowed out the shell of an old church which they moved 100 feet to the left and they built a whole new building off the back of it in the

[Speaker 5] (2:00:10 - 2:00:23)
guts that was also done in salem if you recall when the when the new um is it the the courts house or in salem where the church was moved on 114 you know like the new construction

[Speaker 1] (2:00:24 - 2:00:32)
i didn't know that wow that's very cool thanks for telling me thanks margie for sharing all

[Speaker 5] (2:00:32 - 2:00:51)
that information that's great no worries yeah and we'll keep you abreast um you know as soon as we have more information unfortunately our last meeting of the affordable housing trust fund was canceled so um this was going to be discussed but we'll we'll we'll let you know sort of what the

[Speaker 8] (2:00:51 - 2:01:28)
process is thank you yeah it's a lot i've been looking before i say something uninformed and dumb but i can't find any evidence of what i think i saw somewhere so this might sound totally crazy but going back to hadley i feel like in the last month or so i saw something somewhere i thought maybe it was one of those like town newsletters but i don't know i can't find it that suggested that there was some proposal to use hadley for something related to seniors but i can't read i don't know if i just dreamt that it was in the minutes

[Speaker 12] (2:01:28 - 2:01:49)
or an upcoming agenda i think for a select board meeting no capital improvement committee voted that's what it was capital improvement committee yeah i voted to put that in to advance that to do it like senior housing or senior rec space that is something that if heidi is still on that was a

[Speaker 5] (2:01:49 - 2:03:39)
an agenda item that she brought through the capital improvement committee but at the same time you know as you know the process to dispose of the public property or how the the process for reuse of the hadley was that the the hadley reuse committee finalized the process but having three options right and then we needed to go back to the select board to find out what the next step is in regards to moving forward with a request for proposals or requests for inquiries and try to get additional guidance right now the select board has decided to pause because they wanted to see if there are any similarities or potentials for you know symbiotic kind of like redevelopment of the hawthorn and the hadley sort of like is the if whatever happens at at the hadley what's the impact or what could be a a potential use for the hawthorn that could really complement and then vice versa so we're working through the process right now to engage a consultant to assist us with a public engagement process that would help us narrow down the the the public process on the reuse of the hawthorn but at the same time try to you know vet out the process to find out how important is is having a a symbiotic relationship if you would or is there an opportunity to create any potentials or possibilities between the two properties but i see heidi's back on so maybe heidi you can comment in regards to your request to the cic i would love to comment yes um and

[Speaker 9] (2:03:39 - 2:05:38)
actually that was one of the the three plans that the hadley reuse team came up with when one of affordable housing for seniors and the cic plan that i i um proposed was um looking at our numbers of seniors again and the space that we have at our senior center we are very small so swamp sits right now 6 500 square feet for the senior growing population and last year for example north handover built a new um senior center for their seniors and it's 18 000 square feet and their population is slightly larger than ours but it's about maybe a thousand more than ours so the swans get senior center we love being attached to the high school we love love love we're really using it but at the same time we don't have enough space we're bursting out of the walls anyway so one of the thoughts was well what if we looked at hadley and created a instead of a senior center a center for active living so that it's for all generations and as swamps good for all ages and then perhaps created some affordable housing upstairs which we could get outside funding for so we wouldn't be using swamps good tax monies to create affordable housing upstairs you could even you could do like a b'nai b'rith or you could do it like the b'nai b'rith did it had at michon or even more supportive housing for seniors which is desperately needed in swamp scott looking at something like a two section 202 i don't know all the details of that i i can't share that with you but i i when looking at the numbers it was a plan that we were having fun with and i think that it would be a wonderful wonderful use and a real tribute to our seniors in swamp scott who have been paying taxes into this town for the last you know six generations and allow them to be in a safe community overlooking the water kind of cool so that's my plan man okay

[Speaker 1] (2:05:38 - 2:05:51)
the only part that that i don't and this hasn't got to do with that that i understand is um when you say reuse of the hawthorn is that are you talking about the restaurant

[Speaker 5] (2:05:52 - 2:06:38)
building so so and obviously we'll we're just beginning we're going to um shortly start the public engagement process um so there has to be a plan that we need to go back to town meeting and really come up with a plan right or come up with a redevelopment i think that if you recall at the the last the previous town meeting the the concept that was shared with the community was open space um so then we just want to make sure that there's a truly vetted process to find out what's you know what what does majority of the residents what do we want to see there look at all ideas and all options go back to town meeting and present you know concepts or a concept or update and where the town is on the on the process

[Speaker 1] (2:06:40 - 2:07:24)
so okay i've been my concern is that town meeting did indeed vote to for open space and in particular that the you know with the understanding that um you know the steps would be to demolish the restaurant and then figure out how we sort of weave together you know perhaps a very you know storefront sign the sidewalk piece of the land and keep most of it you know the ocean part for open space so this is the first i've heard that we've even you know discussed keeping the building which is kind of the opposite of what i think town meeting voted to do

[Speaker 5] (2:07:24 - 2:07:37)
just that just concerns me but angel i agree with you that that was um when you when i think of back of the the rendering that was shared at our meeting yeah that's not what we showed up there was an

[Speaker 8] (2:07:37 - 2:08:16)
open space and it wasn't wasn't the purchase wasn't didn't town meeting approve the purchase for the purpose of open space that's right if if the purchase goes through wait how's to go through i don't know if it's still going through okay so so like the purchase goes through and then the town comes back and says we would like you to yeah we want to go back to you know town if board comes to town meeting and says we would like you to approve us not using this for open space what happens if the town meeting says no and then we've bought this property for the purpose

[Speaker 1] (2:08:16 - 2:08:32)
of open space told the select board what to do with it they don't get select board like town meeting comes above the select board right so they tell select board what to do so the select board can't decide to do something else and go back to town meeting because they're not the authority

[Speaker 8] (2:08:33 - 2:08:39)
so i guess they can ask town meeting to approve something else but i mean that seems i mean it

[Speaker 5] (2:08:39 - 2:09:09)
doesn't have to right now is that the process that we have engaged in interviewing consultants is to assist with the the programming or or imagining or um you know planning for the reuse of the parcel just almost building on what the concept was but really engaging the community and engaging the residents in regards to the the final sort of design for the site wait sorry

[Speaker 8] (2:09:10 - 2:09:25)
so you're saying right now the plan is to engage a consultant to help figure out how best to reuse the parcel we reuse the reuse the structure or the lot itself the entire parcel this is kind of

[Speaker 5] (2:09:25 - 2:10:08)
go back to to have a public part process public engagement process for the redesign of the of the parcel so just you know should it be only open space should it have a open space how can we why but but angela the only so the only thing is that i think so open space i think you know all of us on this call when you think of open space everybody might think a different different kind of different thing right would it just be a field or would it be a field or a you know a place structure or would it be a field a play structure and like a sitting area pergola a you know uh that's why

[Speaker 8] (2:10:08 - 2:10:25)
the word parcels but that's right that's um so that's why we're not talking about re but renovating the hawthorne building correct no that's not that's not what i'm saying i mean

[Speaker 5] (2:10:25 - 2:10:44)
the thought process was to demolish it but you know what but but let's say if somebody comes back and has this like great idea that we can turn it into a some kind of community use or something that could work i don't know i'm just you know but i i do think we're almost on the same

[Speaker 8] (2:10:44 - 2:10:51)
page that the consultants being engaged to talk about how best to use the property i think that's

[Speaker 1] (2:10:51 - 2:11:29)
make a community center out of it you voted to stick 140 units in grand square so we could have open space that was the deal not so we could you know have a rec center on the ocean i mean i think we need to very careful there no the rec center is that is habitable isn't it right that's exactly but that's not what i'm that's i'm talking about the hawthorne yeah i think it's a very you know i don't anyway we could talk about this offline it's not necessarily something we need to discuss now i don't think it

[Speaker 6] (2:11:29 - 2:11:32)
was a hundred percent and i think it was a hundred percent open space

[Speaker 1] (2:11:33 - 2:11:53)
no no we talked about the you know we actually the language in there was that the ocean and i think i had my book in front of me i'd read it because it was very specific about the you know the the uh whatever what you know what percentage of land that is pure coastal

[Speaker 12] (2:11:53 - 2:12:08)
was to be you know no no percentages were put on yeah it's for purposes not limited to open space conservation and recreation right and there was also a if you

[Speaker 5] (2:12:08 - 2:13:24)
recall there was a commercial a small commercial pod yes on on humphrey street yes and it just sort of the thought process was you know hey maybe this could be a um like a lime rickies as marblehead does right so then kind of this is this is again you know let's vet the idea further let's take a look at the the feasibility of the market for you know is could we have another restaurant does humphrey street support another restaurant would it be seasonal at the same time really need to look at the economics for humphrey street because you know it's it's easy to build a a building to spec right but then is this going to be another nail place or could it be another you know another doctor's office or something things that great it might not want and when you look at the mix of restaurants that we have um it's been amazing for i think for the humphrey streets for the for the retailers and for the commercial base um which is really great but can we really fully support and sustain another restaurant or something something at that site so this is this will look at you know the feasibility of the market and also you know what could work in there and what's the best for for the job i think we're in complete agreement margie the only

[Speaker 1] (2:13:24 - 2:13:51)
thing that threw me was keeping the hawthorn restaurant that that totally threw me because in that way it was crystal clear to me that that thing was going and that we figure out what to do with the rest of the land but it was you know open space where that building is and then we may develop stuff around it more on the street side so basically that that's that's what made me that was that's what was alarming is that we might reuse the hawthorn building

[Speaker 5] (2:13:52 - 2:14:04)
right i mean everything is you know is is on the table i would say right now so but but but yes open space and kind of trying to find out what programming would work best for that site yeah

[Speaker 4] (2:14:04 - 2:14:42)
okay thanks can i ask a question sorry if i misused anybody no that's that's fine marty while i have we have you on angela mentioned the other parcels that were part of this land grant i'll call it uh that 40b was approved by the state for archer street for the use of the land right the that the use of the land so it would still have to go through the whole process that elm street did assuming the town's eminent domain or whatever purchase

[Speaker 5] (2:14:42 - 2:15:41)
agreement doesn't go through but that's correct so so marissa and i have been really cognizant of the time frame when the petition was filed um to begin the process and at the same time you probably will notice that this coming up wednesday the select board is scheduled to meet and eminent domain procedures is an agenda item or or is one of the items that they are scheduled to discuss we will work with kp law obviously with the zba with the with the chair there in regards to fully understanding the process and trying to find out when the town if if this the zba were to um sort of invoke the safe harbor provision it's again it's all about timing and it's something that the zba needs to invoke at their meeting um so that's something else that you know we will need to have additional guidance from from our legal staff

[Speaker 4] (2:15:43 - 2:15:49)
got it okay i'll watch that meeting on wednesday definitely but as you know the the other parcel

[Speaker 5] (2:15:49 - 2:16:24)
the hoss parcel i could the one across the street that was the same for instance i believe four hundred thousand dollars that's moving forward there's just some additional due diligent that's being done um for the parcel but that will be acquired and we had a resident just north um i'm probably maybe south those i think it's maybe south of that parcel maybe west well just behind the parcel closer to lynn um that he is in the process of donating a little bit of land that would be part of become part of the that's great that's wonderful so

[Speaker 1] (2:16:24 - 2:16:35)
so fingers crossed for the other one where hopefully something will happen there um yeah a lot of balls in the air right now so

[Speaker 4] (2:16:36 - 2:16:50)
yeah i know i'm personally vested in in that other archer street parcel since it's so close to me but you know i can just keep saying it's an untenable development it's going it would

[Speaker 1] (2:16:50 - 2:17:10)
which was why we were so we thought we had such a great argument for um i mean it just seemed bulletproof what what went to the state so i was literally i mean to walk out there and think you can build that i mean it's i don't i don't know i just don't know how they did it i

[Speaker 4] (2:17:10 - 2:17:32)
don't know i just don't see it's really hard i just don't i don't want the optics i'm saying this on a recorded meeting oh well i don't want the optics of being eminent domain versus affordable housing to be like a thing that's a prospect of developing it

[Speaker 1] (2:17:32 - 2:17:38)
you know it's undeveloped yeah hey you're preaching to the choir there so

[Speaker 4] (2:17:39 - 2:17:42)
yeah i know i just wanted to say it again

[Speaker 5] (2:17:46 - 2:18:11)
one thing too if i can mention to you that i'd love some input from you when when the time is right um we did receive a notice today that our grant for a town one townwide pedestrian and a bicycle um plan was approved um so we'll be reaching out to you to ask for your assistance in helping us uh with some of the the plans excellent put me on that committee margie that's

[Speaker 1] (2:18:11 - 2:18:20)
fantastic thank you that's awesome thank you so the open space is going to be delighted yes yeah

[Speaker 5] (2:18:20 - 2:18:25)
i can't wait i didn't have a chance to tell them today but so they'll be thrilled

[Speaker 1] (2:18:26 - 2:19:02)
all right okay anything else thank you so much margie for jumping in thanks for your time heidi um sorry we you know you got halloween scared with the uh idea of the hawthorne we'll settle down and we'll figure it out so um thanks again everyone for all your time and input very um very valuable thank you anything else tonight anyone are you ready to ready to call

[Speaker 4] (2:19:03 - 2:19:05)
motion to adjourn

[Speaker 1] (2:19:07 - 2:19:10)
okay all in favor

[Speaker 15] (2:19:10 - 2:19:14)
thank you very much good night everyone