[Speaker 3] (0:00 - 1:26)
All right, thanks everyone. Welcome to the April 4th Swamp Scouts Select Board meeting. Before we get started, we have a guest from the Girl Scouts, Grace Ramos.

I'd love to have you help lead us. Before we get started, we will start as usual with public comment. Just for the board, you may have noticed in your agenda, there are some revised guidelines for public comment.

There was a Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision a couple of weeks ago involving a case with the town of Southboro, and in speaking with our town council, they provided some revised guidelines. Before I go over them with the public, I just wanted to get acknowledgments from you all and your collective blessing on that before I start reading these revised guidelines.

[Speaker 4] (1:30 - 1:32)
Personally, I'd rather just say public comment.

[Speaker 3] (1:34 - 1:43)
Okay. I mean, they're present in the agenda.

[Speaker 1] (1:50 - 2:02)
I agree with Mary Ellen on this. I don't think you need to read the disclaimer. I think, frankly, town council is a little bit over the top with the length, but it's in our agenda.

Okay.

[Speaker 3] (2:05 - 2:07)
I just didn't want to make a decision without you.

[Speaker 1] (2:07 - 2:08)
No, no, I appreciate you asking.

[Speaker 3] (2:09 - 3:22)
No problem. So with that, then we'll go to public comment. And if there are folks on Teams, they can raise their hand.

Folks in the audience can raise their hand, and also people can submit public comment through e-mail at nduffy.swampscottma.gov. Not seeing any in here and not seeing any on Teams. We can move on to our first agenda item. So very excited to welcome Grace Ramos from Troop 86303, who has completed work on an amazing project, the Mission Penguin Project, which she's here to tell us about, and she's received, earned the Gold Award from the Girl Scouts.

So, Grace, if you want to tell us about your project and experience, that would be great.

[Speaker 12] (3:26 - 6:09)
So, hello. My name is Grace, and I'm a Girl Scout ambassador in Swampscott. My love for the environment sparked in middle school when I joined the Environmental Club at Swampscott Middle School, and I'm a Gold Award recipient for my project, Mission Penguin, for my efforts of environmental education with waste reduction and also the ways of living a more environmentally conscious lifestyle.

I pitched my project to my school, the Academy at Penguin Hall, back in 2021, and when the compost got rejected in April of 2021, I went to the president of my school, Molly Martins, and I proposed a project, the Penguin Project, to educate the school community about how to live a more environmentally conscious lifestyle, but also to teach them about how to sort their waste at school, because we have a trash recycling and compost, and they were all getting contaminated, and that's how our compost got rejected. So, starting in April of 2021, the waste was more than 25 pounds per day for a school community of less than 200 people, and I started the Environmental Club, and throughout the school year of 2021 to 2022, we got the compost down to 15 pounds per day, and with the Environmental Club, we brought back my school's rookery program, which is the cleaning service after lunch to clean up the bistro tables and also to weigh the compost to get those numbers and statistics.

So, I founded and currently lead the Environmental Club at my school, and we create educational activities such as the Five Items Challenge, water pH testing, our farm trip and pumpkin painting, and we also present reminders and our findings to the school community. So, throughout all my work and findings, it would mean nothing if it wasn't sustainable, so because sustainability is the number one factor of a Gold Award project, I have updated the values of APH in our student handbook, as well as made a short story write-up called Grace's Guide to Environmental Education, and I've also made sure that there are signs and resources around the school to continue to educate the school community about how to live a more environmentally conscious lifestyle. So, it's the little things that make the big difference, and I believe that my project has educated people to take action, especially my quiet freshmen in my Environmental Club that are now taking action of their own.

[Speaker 3] (6:18 - 6:20)
Questions or comments from board members?

[Speaker 1] (6:21 - 6:51)
Grace, I'm hoping that you would be willing to share with us and the town Grace's Guide to Environmental Education, because it would seem like we have a pretty good platform that we can continue what you're doing and share it with an audience here, because there's so many initiatives that we need help with, and we talk about it often about increasing our education programming specifically on this. We're talking about climate later tonight, but specifically on this, and it would be really cool if we had that, for example, put on the town website and use other places with your permission, of course.

[Speaker 12] (6:51 - 6:52)
Yeah, of course.

[Speaker 1] (6:52 - 6:53)
That's really awesome.

[Speaker 12] (6:53 - 6:54)
Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (6:55 - 8:08)
So, Grace, we just started composting at Town Hall, so I would love to have you come by Town Hall and help us really learn about those five little ways. I want to just recognize Diane Marchese over there. Diane helped us get a compost bin just a couple weeks ago, and Mary Ellen's work on our Solid Waste Advisory Committee helped really spur a sense that we can all do a little bit more.

Every little bit helps. Your generation is going to be left with a whole lot of work, and the sooner we get to really collectively all understanding all of our little behaviors that make things better or worse, I think we have reason to be optimistic. So thank you so much for being a leader.

You know, this Gold Award is the most significant award that you can earn as a Girl Scout, and it's worth us thinking about your citizenship. We need you, and we need others to really look at you as a hero and as a leader. It takes an awful lot of work to get to where you are, and I can only imagine where you're going to go.

It really is extraordinary for you to be standing here tonight.

[Speaker 12] (8:09 - 8:16)
Thank you. Anything else? Good?

Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (8:16 - 8:46)
Thank you. Thanks, Mary. I just want to thank you, Grace, for being the change that you want to see, and I want to provide you with this citation of appreciation from the select board in the town in recognition of your Girl Scout Gold Award from Troop 86303 for your hard work and dedication working on the Mission Penguin project.

All right.

[Speaker 2] (8:56 - 9:13)
Yeah. Come right up. Grace, why don't you go right in front, and we can all – family members should come down right now.

This is – Yeah. Why don't you right in the middle?

[Speaker 16] (9:21 - 9:23)
Stand here.

[Speaker 7] (9:38 - 9:40)
Thank you. Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (9:57 - 13:13)
So it's a timely award to give to Grace tonight, and, you know, if you want to stick around because the next item on our agenda, I'm glad we all acknowledge the importance of doing little things and big things. We are going to speak about a draft Climate Action Plan. The plan is to have town meeting endorsed this at the annual spring town meeting.

As board members probably recall, last spring at the annual town meeting, town meeting adopted a resolution to develop a Climate Action Plan and agreed to goals of net zero emissions by 2050, which aligned with the state's climate goals, as well as to create this plan that would create goals and actions around addressing the emissions and impacts of climate change currently, as well as the future accelerated impacts of climate change. So since that time, the folks that brought that resolution to town meeting were – some of them are here tonight – it was the Climate Action Resilience Coalition, organized group of volunteers from various walks of life, ages, and other such things. And so that group went on to work on the Climate Action Plan.

Our incredible Marzie Galasco was able to get a grant to help us pay for technical assistance to hire a professional consulting team. Kim Lundergan Associates, KLA, who has done such plans for multiple municipalities in Massachusetts, as well as across the country. The coalition worked on the plan up until about December, when this board created a Climate Action Plan committee, which sort of formalized that work and made these meetings public.

The core group and the coalition sort of shifted over to the Climate Action Plan committee. And I'm happy to say that after a lot of work by the folks on that committee, by the consultants, a lot of outreach with different committees and other folks in town, that we're at a point now where we have a draft plan. Still some more outreach and work to do over the next month, but really excited to have this in front of you tonight to review, ask questions, provide comments.

And the hope is to have this in our warrant when we close it at the end of April. And with that, I'm going to hand it over to Martha Schmidt, who is the chair and hero of the Climate Action Plan committee, who's done an incredible job over the last year. Yeah, we can give you a microphone.

Diane, do we have the presentation that she sent out? Thank you.

[Speaker 10] (13:20 - 15:04)
So we can flip over. Next. I think Neil already talked to the background here.

So key was our application for a grant, and we got a grant from the Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs Office to support refinement and finalization of a Climate Action and Resilience Plan in the amount of $50,000, and we used that to pay KLA, the consultant. And KLA primarily supported the following activities. They helped us with branding, with messaging.

They organized stakeholder meetings, and they created pathways analysis, basically showing us how we drive our emissions down over time and completed an executive summary, which I think you all have a copy of. So I wanted to introduce the Climate Action Plan committee members. There's ten of us on the committee.

This group has been really dedicated, and I have to say we had an accelerated schedule, and everybody showed up to meetings twice a month, and that's pretty phenomenal. It just shows how much dedication and also a sense of urgency that we all have to actually doing something and start to work on our climate issues. So, you know, my hat's off to the team.

Next.

[Speaker 1] (15:05 - 15:08)
Martha, do you mind just introducing who's here tonight from that list?

[Speaker 10] (15:08 - 15:14)
Of course. So Suzanne Hale. Hi, Suzanne.

You've met me before. Amos.

[Speaker 15] (15:15 - 15:16)
Yes.

[Speaker 14] (15:17 - 15:18)
Doug Thompson.

[Speaker 10] (15:18 - 15:22)
And Doug is the vice chair of the committee. And I think we have Sam.

[Speaker 15] (15:23 - 15:24)
Yes, Sam.

[Speaker 13] (15:24 - 15:29)
I'm one of the students. Thank you.

[Speaker 10] (15:30 - 22:18)
Great. So last September, we conducted a survey with the town to get some input on how people feel about climate change in general and also asking for additional input and ideas. But just at a high level, the results show that 85% of people that responded think that climate change is extremely important or somewhat important to address.

Next. So how climate change impacts Swampscott. So we've all seen these extreme events.

We've seen the flooding, especially last winter, you know, with the flooding, you know, with the Nor'easter. Impacts include power outages down trees, flooding, stormwater runoff that causes more pollution. Next.

And this shows at a high level how Swampscott contributes to climate change. So the two primary drivers of emissions are buildings and energy and transportation. So buildings and energy contribute about 60%, and roughly close to 40% is coming from transportation.

Next. So to address climate change, we basically have two approaches. One is to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, and the other is to adapt to climate change impacts.

Our plan is called Resilient Swampscott, and it really provides a high-level framework to make our community stronger and healthier and more resilient. So our plan is organized into five key focus areas. So we have buildings and energy, solid waste and recycling, natural resources, resilience and vulnerability, and transportation.

And basically, KLA completed a pathways analysis, which really helped define our goals, strategies and actions for how we really drive emissions down over time. So we kind of did the greenhouse gas inventory. It shows where our emissions are coming from by sector.

And given those emissions, we formulate strategies and actions to really reduce over time to get to net zero by 2050. So for each focus area, we have a vision statement. We have what's included in the focus area.

We include baseline data, and there's also metrics for tracking progress over time. So that's how the plan is composed. And in addition to the high-level overview by focus area, there's a set of detailed goals, strategies and actions.

For each focus area, there's one or two goals. For this one, for example, we have buildings and energy. We're addressing energy as one goal, right?

And the other goal is to get buildings to electrify. So reducing emissions from buildings as well as attacking the energy system itself. So for transportation, there are two goals.

One is to address our transportation system in general to make it safer, more accessible. And the other one is to electrify cars, buses and trucks. So reducing emissions from vehicles.

For resilience and vulnerability, again, we have two goals. One is to improve our infrastructure to make it more resilient. And the other is really focus on our community in general to make it more prepared for extreme events.

So we made sure that we were aligned with other town plans. So we did take a look at the Swamp Scoot Master Plan 2025. We looked at the Kleinfelder Report as well, the Open Space and Recreation, and also the Harbor and Waterfront Plan.

In terms of outreach, we approached different committees to attend their meetings and get them on board, make them aware of what we were working on. In addition to that, KLA held three meetings with stakeholders, and they included a number of participants from the town, including the fire chief, the police department, board of health, council on aging. And you can see there's about 20-plus people from around town that were invited to the stakeholder meetings to give their input.

For next steps, we are conducting a community meeting next week, next Monday, to let everybody know what we've been working on, make them aware of the plan, and solicit additional input. And we also will continue to reach out to other committee members and stakeholders. We hope to get inputs to the draft.

We already have collected a number of updates to the draft that you see. There are some glitches. There's some typos.

So there are some errors in the report right now. So we're able to turn around some feedback this week to KLA, and then we expect another round of feedback next week as well. So hope to get it finalized in time for town meeting.

So I didn't go through a lot of details. We can go into details if you'd like. I know you had a chance to maybe review the plan, and you may have some questions about it.

[Speaker 3] (22:19 - 23:19)
Thanks, Martha. The only thing I'll add and then ask for questions and comments is just that this climate action plan, like other climate action plans from other municipalities and most master plans like our master plan, is that it's really a framework of how we move forward in setting these high-level goals and identifying some specific actions. But I would just keep in mind that this is showing, again, just the framework of how we get there.

If there's an action that's not necessarily specifically included, it doesn't mean that it's intentionally excluded from the plan, and it's a working, living document. And when you have a goal that reaches as far as 2050, obviously you're not going to be capturing every specific action that's going to take place between now and then. So I just wanted to mention that, keep that in mind as you're thinking about it and asking questions.

[Speaker 1] (23:20 - 29:35)
So I'm wondering if there's – we have this conversation a lot about taking ideas to action and how to help committees. And in particular committees, I think it's really hard. Katie and I were talking about this recently.

Committees, it's really hard. Volunteer committees oftentimes don't know what's possible easily and what's possible hard and what's possible medium. And frankly, it takes us time on the board to learn these things.

And so I was just – you know, buildings and energy is just – because that's where Martha focused. I focused on it as well. And people don't realize – like, we're used to seeing these presentations.

People don't realize that our homes are our bigger offender. We talk about electric cars until we're blue in the face, right? But we don't talk about homes with the same vigor that we talk about electric cars.

And so what are things that we can do? So if we were to pull the plumbing permits from 2021-22 and to see how many boiler replacements there were, I think we would be shocked by how many boiler replacements there were. And if we were to then say how many were electric, we would be not shocked, but we would be disappointed, right?

And so I just wonder if there's a way for us to help this committee, but all committees, but this committee in particular to be able to have town government in particular look at the goals and come back and say immediately, this is what town government can do. Like, this is what the town administrator can do now. So, for example, there's a suggestion here about waiving permit fees if you're doing electric boilers.

That's a great idea, but how about we actually have an education packet that when someone comes in to pull a permit, we are actually educating them about the electric facility out there. We're educating them about the rebates that are out there. We're educating them about the type of equipment out there, because oftentimes people are not informed, and then those that are a little bit informed are misinformed, which is, oh, electric is expensive, or electric doesn't make sense, or the technology hasn't gotten there yet.

But in truth, it has, right? And not in all ways. There are certain things in a home that you still would say hydronic heating is a better way of heating than electric heating, but there are increasingly the technologies there, and for those that are going to be here long enough, it financially makes absolute sense, if not environmental sense for someone.

That doesn't motivate them. It certainly makes financial sense for others. Maybe not, and so that's a personal decision there, but we're not too far away from the code changing it and requiring all electrification, right?

And so we should be beating that drum and beating it ahead of the code. So I think there's just a series of things that I would just ask. We don't necessarily have to go through them tonight, but I think for this committee, you know, to have the town administrator come back in the next 30 days and so that the committee can say we've already been talking with the town and that town meeting saying these are things that are already happening to advance some of these goals, I think is powerful because people don't know, like, what you can do, Sean, without town meeting approval or without board approval or board appropriation. They just assume everything is a process, and a lot of things are a process.

I think to hear from you and, you know, have you work with Martha and Doug and Sierra and Suzanne and everyone to go through it and Sam is, to me, just a really powerful opportunity because I think there is actually a lot of things that speak to these goals that you actually, we can be more proactive, and there are other communities that are being more proactive yet that we can grab from as well. And also my next comment is, so those are the easy things, right? Then what are the middle things and the hard things?

The middle things are what can we do, Slomscott specific, to be stewards and to be leaders and stuff, understanding that there are some limitations in law, there's financial limitations, there's a whole bunch of things. So what can we do locally that requires a different level of approval? And we're coming on, you know, yes, we're approving the plan, but I would welcome the idea that not only are we approving the plan, asking town committee to approve the plan, but we're asking them to approve the first initiative.

Like what's the thing you want them to think about this May, right? And for us to do it. There are communities that are out there that are already doing some of these things, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel, right?

But there are some leaders out there that we can grab from. And together with passing the plan, we're instantly also passing execution, right? And I think that's really important because it brings the plan to life immediately.

And I think we can help you with that because that's more what we think about, right? And so we can hear your ideas in exchange, and the month of April is the time to do it. We're going to open the warrant tonight, I think, and then close it at the end of this month.

But what's that first step? In whatever category. We can't do a million things at once, and it's really hard, and we've got to concentrate.

But where do you all think the best first move is for us? It could be in the composting world, in which case you're going to have to get Grace's guide to environmental education. But things like that.

But I do think that there are those instant things like getting Grace's education online so it's more approachable and more digestible and in our classrooms so it's more approachable and digestible. But then there are town administrator initiatives. Then there are initiatives, for example, we see other communities and we say, well, Brookline, a lot of people were making a lot of noise about Brookline doing this, but it seemed to work well.

Or they've learned some lessons already, and they've made some tweaks. Let's take some benefits. Let's learn from that, and how can we successfully adapt that here?

I think with the opening of our new school in 24 months, the first piece of steel went up this week. That's going to change forever how we look at buildings in our town, because thanks to the leadership of the school building committee and Neil and town staff, we're really making a really strong effort there. But I want to just help empower this committee.

If you guys think you're ready, come in May, let's do the first thing that you want to do here. And let's show action so we're not just talking about the future. The future, we all agree, was probably five years ago, ten years ago, right?

So we all feel like we're behind a little bit already. So let's play catch-up a bit and do it. So thanks for thinking about that.

[Speaker 2] (29:35 - 32:52)
Peter, I appreciate all those ideas. I do think town administrators, town managers, mayors, we all have an affirmative responsibility to do more. You know, over the last few years, we've implemented a waste reduction plan.

It forced everybody in Swansket to move to one barrel. It wasn't easy, but we did it as a community. And I think when we think about, you know, all of the things that impair our air quality, like lawn mowers, for instance, or, you know, gas-powered machines, weed whackers, leaf blowers, all of these things add so many elements of environmental hazards.

And we should find a way to incentivize this. And I've talked a few times over the years about, you know, if we're going to town meeting, could we put some funding in place that would help our good residents that are really trying to be as efficient as they can in a marketplace that's really costly with inflation? Could we incentivize electric yard tools?

Is that something that would actually make more sense in a wonderful little town that's pretty dense, that is small, and everybody's on top of each other? Could we be quieter, safer, cleaner, and greener? These are things that we as a governing body and a town administration can do together with the help of some extraordinary young citizens, but also dedicated citizens.

I'm eager to sit down and talk about why we don't have town buildings that have solar panels. I'm eager to talk about why we don't have farmers' markets that have covered areas for all season. Farmers' markets, creative economies that have solar panels that can help us generate the creative economy, but also be cleaner and greener.

We have wonderful parking lots. Why not make them examples of our commitment to resiliency? All of these things can happen.

It's right here. The future is here. We just have to show up and lead together.

So I'm excited about this. I really do think this resonates with Swanscot's leadership. If you look over the last 20 years, Swanscot has a legacy of leadership with environmental stewardship.

We have all sorts of committees. Our Renewable Energy Committee is absolutely rock star. Swanscot Conservancy is rock star.

No better committees in the Commonwealth, and I think we can pull together the leadership that can help us. Just be optimistic. The last point I want to make is it's not going to happen on a state level.

It's all due respect to my colleagues at the state level. It will not happen on the federal level. It will not happen internationally.

It happens right here on a local level. Every one of the citizens in this town has to think about how we impact the environmental sustainability. When we're having holiday dinners and we're cooking too much food or when we're doing things that aren't really good for the planet, we all have to hear somebody remind us that there's a better way.

Thank you.

[Speaker 10] (32:52 - 32:53)
Sounds great.

[Speaker 9] (32:54 - 33:53)
I think one of the easiest things, just looking at goal one, is achieve 100% renewable energy for local electric supply and reduce methane emissions in the gas distribution system. Currently, we have that in place. That is currently in place within the town of Swanscot, where it's an opt-in program.

I think getting that information out to the public, especially as we saw the impacts to the natural gas market, and we saw what that did to electric bills this winter. We had switched over and we were paying a little more. However, once that rate change kicked in, we were paying probably 65%, 70% less than we were on the spot market to National Grid.

I think it's very important for us to get that information out there and make that available to all of our residents and make it easy for them to have that information at their fingertips.

[Speaker 2] (33:53 - 34:01)
We can do a better job having PSAs that just talk about the importance of these programs that we have.

[Speaker 7] (34:03 - 34:49)
I know it's not mutually exclusive to environmental initiatives, but I feel like in this realm, there's a lot of misinformation. You guys have the insurmountable task above and beyond getting people to listen to you. You have to rewire the way they're thinking because so much of the information that comes out about solar and even something as simple as changing the options you were talking about, changing your electrical provider, the amount of conversation that was inaccurate was mind-boggling.

People go places for their information these days that maybe aren't the best sources for them. Perhaps if we gave them a source like this and made it more attainable, as you all are doing daily, that will help combat some of that.

[Speaker 15] (34:49 - 35:09)
Could we just take a quick minute? We have another member of our committee. Petey is our other high school member of the committee, who you may remember spoke with Sam to town meeting.

Sam and Petey have both been incredibly inspirational and creative forces, so I just wanted to acknowledge them.

[Speaker 2] (35:10 - 35:11)
Terrific.

[Speaker 3] (35:16 - 35:18)
Any questions, comments?

[Speaker 4] (35:19 - 36:29)
I think the biggest thing that I always take away from almost every select board meeting that we have is what opportunity we have for communication. I received a phone call about a month ago from a friend of mine in town who said that he got this great deal on electric rates. He said, do you want the number because you'd get a great deal, too.

I said, I think I'd pay a good electric rate. But I called anyway and I found out that my rate was 40% less than the great deal that he had, and my rate was the town rate. So I was able to get him the town information, too.

And this is an individual who's a town meeting member who's active and watches everything but didn't know. So I really think we should have a communications committee, a group of people that gets together and forms and figures out how we can improve on communicating and getting information out. I just keep thinking about that.

So we have a collective group of people that makes recommendations on how we can communicate across town because it's just a big opportunity.

[Speaker 3] (36:29 - 37:10)
I mean, yeah, and that goes along with what Katie was saying. I mean, there is a lot of misinformation, especially in regards to solar and municipal aggregation. I think that, unfortunately, it gives a bad reputation for any initiatives like this.

And folks don't sort of think about the fact that there are bad actors in every part of society. And so it doesn't mean that solar is bad or municipal aggregation is bad. It just means that there are bad actors there.

But I totally agree. The information is key in all of this.

[Speaker 4] (37:11 - 37:16)
Which community does the best job in the commonwealth with this? Do we know?

[Speaker 3] (37:16 - 37:20)
With education? With this being communication or this being environmental initiatives?

[Speaker 4] (37:21 - 37:22)
Environmental initiatives with reduction.

[Speaker 3] (37:22 - 39:38)
I mean, there's not like, oh, they're number one. Natick does a really good job. Winchester does a really good job.

Somerville does a really good job. Cambridge, Brookline, Newton. Most of the ones that you would probably think of and guess do a really good job.

And then out west, there's like Amherst, Northampton. Salem does a pretty good job. I have to say that.

Beverly also is doing a lot of good work. So, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of, you know, we are, you know, we've talked about this as a community. We are not necessarily leading as a town.

We're not doing nothing. But we need to do a lot more. I'm glad Sierra mentioned PD.

And Sam, I also want to just make sure I mention Diana Eddowes and Lily Wordley and Gerilyn Falco, who are the other members of the Climate Action Planning Committee who aren't here. Also were incredibly important to this work. I also want to, just along those lines of needing to do more, I mean, I would invite PD or Sam if you want to say something.

I know, Sam, you're not typically shy when it comes to these things. So I invite you to say anything you would like. We've had a lot of talk as a group, and we're talking here tonight about a lot of the benefits.

But I think we all understand the need for action, and we're sort of well past the carrot stage of this process, and that sticks are also tools that need to be used. That's a heck of a handoff to Sam. So I just think it's important.

I think Sam will say whatever Sam wants to say. I know that. But I think Sam can speak to the urgency.

You don't need to do anything. You can just talk.

[Speaker 13] (39:38 - 40:37)
Okay, all right. So thank you for that. Yeah, I mean, I was lucky enough for the high school.

When we started our composting program, I was lucky enough to be a big part of us being able to start that. And I know you guys were kind of talking about with the municipal buildings about what we can do forward and about modeling other towns. And about a month ago, I was able to talk with the Salem board about them passing an ordinance that would mandate all municipal buildings without composting.

And, I mean, there's a lot in the plan. Composting is probably the thing I can speak to the most. But I think that's probably, especially you're talking about, Mr. Spalius, about the easy things, the hard things, whatever. I think it's probably one of the simpler ways to reduce a really big emitter, especially because methane is a lot more potent than CO2. So I guess if there's one takeaway I want to give, at least from my position on it, I do think that mandating composting in municipal buildings is probably the simplest and easiest way to just do something that would be a relatively big write-off of emissions.

[Speaker 9] (40:38 - 40:45)
Sam, in your opinion, should we go farther and mandate composting for our commercial?

[Speaker 13] (40:47 - 41:09)
I would, I mean, my personal opinion is I think that it should be just as trash and recycling is mandated for all residences, composting should also be. I know that that's a little bit further down the line. Yeah, I mean, I do think it should be mandated, I think, for every building in town.

So commercial also, although I think there probably should be some exceptions for newer, smaller businesses if it's difficult for them to pay for it.

[Speaker 1] (41:10 - 42:50)
So just following up on what David said, you said it's probably further down the line. Why do you think it's further down the line? I think David was inviting you to say, why aren't we doing this now?

And so, I mean, it's been a couple years since we changed. I mean, our town administrator doesn't have enough gray hair yet, so he can figure this out. But, I mean, it's been a couple years since we changed.

We changed to the one barrel and that we had projections as to what that would save and how much it would cost residents. And with the help of DEP working with a former colleague on the board here and those projections came out incredibly accurately. And that's because it's science and it's math.

And the funny thing about science and math, you do them right. But like here, so compost is an expense. Is an expense enough reason for us to be taking it to the next level and say, hey, if you were to do what Grace did in terms of Grace talking about 25 pounds a day of compost for under 200 people and then reducing it down to 15 pounds, that's a heck of a decrease.

And never mind just in trash disposal, but also just then the residual effects of that. So it's saving us money. It's saving residents money in that regard, in trash disposal.

But then we have the environmental benefits in there. So I guess not just to put you on this, but I put it to all of you. As to a topic, is now the time for us to be, has the market caught up enough?

Can we be more forward leaning on composting as an example? Just again, to provoke. I think that's where David was going, so I want to fully endorse that line of questioning.

[Speaker 13] (42:50 - 43:28)
I can also, I can say, I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't do, like I said, I do personally believe we should have mandated composting for all buildings, including residential. The only reason I would say maybe further down the line is I understand a lot of other towns have hesitated to do that. I know we were kind of talking about whether Swampska is playing catch-up, leading, what's her position.

So if the town government would be willing to mandate that for all buildings, including residential, I would support that. And I think that would definitely make us a leader in this particular situation. Although also, I know you mentioned the expense of it.

That's also something else. I know with Max Casper, who he was our town guy who really helped us make it happen at the high school.

[Speaker 2] (43:28 - 43:29)
He's our facilities director.

[Speaker 13] (43:29 - 43:57)
Facilities director, yeah, I was wondering. Yeah. And so one of the things he was talking about is that because the composting companies can make money off of the waste that they collect, they resell, turn it into soil, it can actually be relatively affordable to have composting compared to trash, especially in terms of what you pay per pound or per pickup.

So I think even on the expense side, I do fully believe it should be mandated for all buildings. And I don't think the expense is that bad, especially if the town helps with education and communication to make sure people are aware of everything.

[Speaker 14] (44:00 - 44:01)
Neil, can I chime in for a minute?

[Speaker 13] (44:02 - 44:02)
Of course, yeah.

[Speaker 14] (44:03 - 45:42)
Just two points I wanted to make. One is, I mean, it's been phenomenal working with this committee, for sure, and I've learned a lot throughout the process. One thing that we didn't emphasize in the slides that is in the packet that you all have, and I just want to make sure as part of the public record, is that I think it's really important to this committee that we think about the equity dimensions of all of this throughout our town.

You know, for some it's easy to go out and buy an electric vehicle or put in a heat pump or whatever, but for others it isn't. We really need to be thinking about the diversity of impact here and how the town in its limited resources can be responsive to helping people facilitate this process forward. The other thing I want to acknowledge is that in addition to all this, there's another program that parts of this committee effectively have helped work with MARSI to get a community-first grant, and that's in place right now for the next two years, and it's going to be hiring an energy advocate here.

We're partnered with Lynn, and this is actually going around every single house in Swampscott, again, in partnership with Revise to help people do the weatherization, to get, you know, to your point, Mary Ellen, about communication and making sure people really understand what the programs are. So in terms of attacking that big driver of greenhouse gas on the building side, we do actually have an effort here. We have actually metrics that we need to hit in terms of 600 conversions of one type or another each year.

So there is kind of some infrastructure starting to be put into place to help facilitate this process.

[Speaker 3] (45:44 - 45:45)
Thanks, Tom.

[Speaker 1] (45:47 - 45:58)
So I don't want you leaving here saying, oh, great, now what have they just said, do more. I mean, for 20-some-odd more days, you're the liaison, I think, to this committee. I'm on it.

[Speaker 10] (45:58 - 45:59)
You're on the committee, for God's sake.

[Speaker 1] (46:00 - 48:37)
So I'm just wondering, again, if we can leave here with a sense of coming back and getting back. You know, there are – I guess I'm going to say it two ways. There are – we can – all of us could do a class on civics and how to do things in town government because we've all learned things through our own experiences here, but there's really two ways.

And we can put things on the warrant that go to the warrant, and we can also just get the select board to say, hey, we're going to do something. I mean, so there are multiple ways and multiple avenues to do it. And at times, sometimes the conversations need to be difficult, right?

And so I just would – to us and to others, I wouldn't be afraid to have tough conversations. Just because something doesn't pass the first time around doesn't mean it's not going to pass. Sometimes we need to just elevate the conversation and the import.

Now, I'm not saying it's not going to pass. Nothing we talked about tonight I wouldn't support and throw my voice behind, but we've got to take those steps, right? And sometimes that – and I guess I'm encouraging us to be smart but not too tentative because we're not talking about things that are worthy of being tentative for.

We're talking about things that I think we need to be bold for. And so I would encourage us to say, hey, this is going to be a big discussion point at town meeting. I mean, if town meeting really wants to think about it, this is big.

This is now going to be something that's going to start redirecting our thought process when we talk about capital later on tonight, right? I just pulled the capital page out because I was curious to say how many electric vehicles are we talking about? And when the DPW trucks are being replaced, are we now going electric?

Are we doing all those things? And it's going to put it through a different lens, which is awesome, but we can also start now doing some other things. And I think, Doug, I appreciate your point about equity.

This is not uniform, but I will point out what is one of the biggest ironies of what you said. You're totally right, and we always have to, and I appreciate Sean's willingness to put town money and say maybe there's ways that we can incentivize and help people. When we did the trash barrel change, by and large, if you were to do a heat map of the town of Swampscott as to who complained and who didn't complain, I'm just letting you know that you would find some great ironies in that because I don't think by and large it was the people in town that you thought would complain about the financial inequities.

I'm not delegitimizing their concern. I'm just saying it's quite interesting, the feedback, and I say that very comfortably, knowing the number of people and who they were that reached out to me during that time period. It's surprising, right?

But your point's really valid, and Sean's always willing to find a path for that. So I appreciate you raising that.

[Speaker 2] (48:38 - 49:10)
I'm eager to sit down. Maybe we can find some time next week. I do think the capital plan sounds interesting to me, and it sounds interesting to the board.

I think we put our funding where our values are, and I think we can't just show up with good ideas. We have to show up with sometimes some challenging ideas. We are behind the eight ball, and, you know, Swampscott should be a leader.

We shouldn't be in the middle of the pack. We should be helping other communities see that we can get there sooner than later.

[Speaker 3] (49:16 - 49:51)
This is great. Seems like support, right? I think that, yeah, I mean, to your point, Peter, I think everyone's also thinking about the task ahead of continuing to educate folks on this plan, and so I think we will think about what makes sense in terms of what we want to try to add, possibly to the warrant and to our efforts over the next month.

Edie, do you want to say anything? Don't feel pressured to, but you're welcome to.

[Speaker 1] (49:51 - 49:52)
We need a microphone.

[Speaker 3] (49:52 - 49:57)
We need a microphone. Thanks, Doug.

[Speaker 12] (50:00 - 50:40)
I'm glad that this plan is moving forward, and I'm really eager to see where it goes. And at the same time, I just feel like with a lot of the student groups that I've been involved with, I went to the state house, I think, a month before last and heard a lot of students there speaking about things that were happening on the state level, trying to get state-level initiatives passed, and generally the feeling I have is a feeling of exigence and just doing as much as we can as fast as possible. I think this is a great first step. That's really all I have to say, and I'm really eager to see what happens with this, and I hope that it's successful and that we get our goals accomplished.

[Speaker 4] (50:41 - 50:43)
Thanks. Thanks, Peter.

[Speaker 15] (50:47 - 51:28)
One of those next steps is to continue working with Townsend-Moscow. Another next step is to continue with community outreach and engagement, and so just to highlight the community meeting that we will be having. Once again, that will be this next Monday, April 10th, here in this room at 630, and we are going to be working on a virtual option as well, but we'd love to see folks in person, hear questions, comments.

We've heard a lot of really awesome ideas, concerns already, and visions for being leaders in this arena, so looking forward to continuing the discussion next Monday evening.

[Speaker 1] (51:29 - 51:35)
Thanks, Evelyn. Can we make sure to push that out on all of our news to make sure that people see this?

[Speaker 2] (51:35 - 51:37)
Great. Can we get it out again? Again?

[Speaker 9] (51:37 - 51:38)
Again.

[Speaker 14] (51:40 - 51:41)
I'll certainly be pushing that out.

[Speaker 2] (51:41 - 51:42)
Let's get a robo.

[Speaker 14] (51:43 - 51:48)
We are sending out a message to everyone on town meeting about that meeting as well.

[Speaker 3] (51:49 - 51:51)
Yeah, town meeting members are getting blasted.

[Speaker 1] (51:51 - 52:07)
Yeah, I think that town meeting is really important because there are those that will get up at town meeting and say they have no idea what we're about to vote on, and it's very thick, and it's a lot of stuff in it, and we need more time, and so that outreach is very helpful.

[Speaker 3] (52:07 - 53:21)
Yep. All right. Thanks, guys.

Thank you. Thanks, all of you. Okay, so we're moving on.

I was thinking the appropriate order would be to do a quick vote to open the annual town meeting warrant, and then we can discuss the accessory dwelling unit as well as the fiscal 24 budget, which are part of that. So is there a motion? So moved.

Second. Further discussion? All those in favor?

Aye. Great. So next we're talking about an accessory dwelling unit draft bylaw.

We have Mike Crocia from the planning board. Mike, once these guys move on, find a mic. Find a mic, Mike.

Thanks, Grace. I don't know if no one else. Oh, Angela's here, too.

[Speaker 16] (53:21 - 53:21)
Sorry.

[Speaker 2] (53:22 - 53:23)
Angela, you can come down, too.

[Speaker 3] (53:25 - 53:27)
Okay. Do you want a mic?

[Speaker 5] (53:36 - 59:52)
Oh, is there a PowerPoint that we can go through? Okay. Good evening, everyone.

So Mike Crocia with the planning board. I've been on the planning board since 2019, I want to say. So four years now.

And in that time, accessory dwelling units have come up before the board a few times. We have an existing bylaw right now that's called the accessory apartments bylaw. And we've been looking to make changes to that.

It's kind of restrictive, I would say, in what it allows in town right now. And there's sort of a statewide and nationwide trend and push for housing choice and different types of housing units that aren't just your typical single family home, which Momscot does have plenty of. So let's go through this slideshow.

You want to hit the next slide, please? So, you know, our accessory apartments bylaw that we have now allows for basically an accessory apartment within a single family home. And that's strictly within the home.

And there's size restrictions. There's a restriction on the use as well. So, like, if you wanted to get one of these approved, you'd actually have to get a special permit from the zoning board.

So there's actually a couple things that we want to change, and I'll get into those specifically. So what is an ADU, right? It's a self-contained housing unit which would have sleeping, cooking, and sanitary facilities.

So, you know, it has a kitchen, right? You might want to build a bedroom, say, for your mother or your mother-in-law, but this actually has its own kitchen, its own bathroom, its own separate entrance. And it really functions like an apartment now, but they're small, which is the key, right?

They're actually secondary accessory to the principal dwelling unit. So they're not going to be larger than 900 square feet or half the floor area of the house. So if you have a 1,600 square foot house, 800 square feet is where you're capped at.

Next slide. That's actually the state definition, is my understanding, of an accessory dwelling unit. So why would we, I'll call it modernize, our accessory apartment by-law and turn it into an ADU by-law?

Well, housing choice, like I said, these types of units are not big A affordable. They're not, you know, your subsidized housing, but they are less expensive to produce than a typical single-family dwelling just by the fact that they're smaller. The lot typically already has utilities, and that's another key point, is actually these accessory dwelling units would be on the same utilities as the main home, and they cannot be sold separately from the main home either, right?

So they're all on the same deed, essentially. So it's not a condo. It's not a two-family.

Really, it is subsidiary to the main dwelling unit in every way, size, ownership, and utilities. Okay, so affordability and then diversity. Like I said, you know, a single-family home doesn't work for everybody, but that's what we have in town, and as folks want to age in place, they may want a choice that isn't their 2,000 plus square foot home, but they want to stay in town, and there aren't those options.

So if they were able to build an ADU on their property, they could even move into that ADU and rent out their principal dwelling. Next slide, please. So ADUs and swamp scout, what are we proposing, right?

Currently, like I said, the accessory apartment, you need a special permit for that use. We're saying the use is by right. That's no review by the zoning board for that.

Now, if we talk about how things are permitted in town, it's my feeling after having four years of experience doing this kind of thing, and as an architect as well, it's very difficult in this town and in many towns in Massachusetts to build something by right. If you're going to build an addition that's attached to your home, it's very often that you will run up against some sort of zoning hiccup. You don't have the right setbacks.

You don't have the right frontage. So somebody is going to be reviewing this regardless. They're just not going to be reviewing the use as an accessory dwelling.

So that's kind of the key point I wanted to make there. The other thing is that we're not going to be allowing, as proposed, detached structures to be built. It will either have to be within the existing home, attached to that existing home, or a preexisting detached structure at the time this bylaw is passed, if it is passed.

So that's key, because in town we have a lot of, we'll call it carriage houses in the historic district. We have a lot of two-car garages that were turn of the century, you know, turn of the last century. And we want to kind of grandfather those in and say, you already have this on your property, so we're not going to be changing the character here.

But you can convert that preexisting structure into a unit of housing that you will then rent out. The other key point is that homeowner occupancy would be required either in the ADU itself or in the principal dwelling. So you're not going to be having a slew of unknown renters, for example.

And all ADUs will be required to have off-street parking. So next slide, please.

[Speaker 3] (59:52 - 1:00:12)
Can I just ask about that preexisting detached? Sure. So maybe this doesn't exist as a scenario, but if there's somebody who does not have a detached building that they want to build, but they're not able to, is that the other side of that coin?

[Speaker 5] (1:00:12 - 1:00:59)
We had a lot of discussion about this point. There's a version of the bylaw that existed for a while where you could build a detached building and call it an ADU. We went back and forth about that, and we said in the future we could allow that.

We kind of want to take this one step at a time. Right now they're just allowed within your existing home. So now we're saying, well, actually, you can use a carriage house, and you can convert an existing carriage house.

And if there is some success in town with that, we would then say, okay, potentially we could allow new detached units to be built. But I didn't want to take it that far in the initial writing of it.

[Speaker 7] (1:00:59 - 1:01:05)
I have a question about this. Yeah. What if the current residence doesn't have that?

[Speaker 5] (1:01:06 - 1:01:49)
It's a great question. I would say that when we were talking about this today, nonconformities like that would be reviewed as part of a process, a design review process or special permit process, right? And that's kind of like not as part of the accessory dwelling unit itself, but as a part of constructing something in town anyway.

So that would be reviewed under your typical review process in town. You were on the zoning board for a while. I don't want to misspeak, but I think that would be how it would work.

[Speaker 4] (1:01:49 - 1:01:57)
But who reviews it if it's by right? Yeah. If it's by right, there's no special permit.

So who would be reviewing?

[Speaker 5] (1:01:57 - 1:03:32)
This is a great question. Like I said, my feeling is that in town, it's very difficult to build anything without somebody reviewing it, right? So the typical process is you submit an application that I'm building something to the building commissioner or the building inspector, right?

He then reviews that application. And if there's anything that doesn't conform with our zoning bylaw, he then flags it and says, this has to be reviewed by the planning board. This has to be reviewed by the zoning board.

This has to be reviewed by the historic commission. So there's very limited cases where a lot is completely conforming in town. So all we're doing is saying, you can build an ADU if you meet all of the letters of the law.

It doesn't happen, which is my point. There's no lots large enough. There's no conditions where it would not be reviewed by someone.

And it's always reviewed by the building commissioner. That's kind of the baseline for any building permit. So if they want to say, I'm building an ADU, but I'm not going to have any off-street parking, the building commissioner would go, well, you can't do that.

So someone else is going to have to review it. That's not me. The zoning board, the planning board, whatever the bylaw says about that particular thing.

Does that make sense?

[Speaker 7] (1:03:33 - 1:03:36)
So nonconforming lots don't get this by right? They must go under review.

[Speaker 5] (1:03:36 - 1:03:43)
They get the use by right. But it's just the way that the process works to build anything.

[Speaker 1] (1:03:44 - 1:03:54)
Right. So let's go away. I suggest going away from lot.

These are existing detached structures. So they're already there. Because I think you can stay on parking.

That's where the question is.

[Speaker 10] (1:03:54 - 1:03:55)
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 1] (1:03:55 - 1:04:20)
If they don't have a parking space. Yep. Right?

Right. The answer you're giving is that under the way this is drafted now, the building inspector would say, okay, I can't give you an occupancy permit for this use here. Because as of right.

But you can go to the zoning board or whatever board. You have to go through a process because it requires just an extra level of review that I, the building commissioner, can't give you on my behalf.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:21 - 1:04:27)
That's right. Thank you. Yeah.

I need to create a flow chart, really, about how development happens.

[Speaker 2] (1:04:27 - 1:04:28)
It would be an ugly picture.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:30 - 1:04:32)
It's not your fault. It would be a really bad picture.

[Speaker 2] (1:04:32 - 1:05:13)
Why do you have a parking requirement? Great question. If we're thinking about the goals of a more inclusive community, making sure that we address the housing crisis, and we're trying to really diversify the housing stock and so on.

And we know that in the future there may be less folks that actually have the burden of owning a vehicle. Maybe there are more folks that own bicycles. Sure.

You get an MBTA train station, it's completely conceivable that the future may think differently. Why are we stuck in a mode that's still putting a barrier to.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:14 - 1:05:25)
. . You're speaking my language.

I'm just wondering, like, why? I mean, it's a good point. There are definitely homes in town that don't have parking spots, right?

My neighborhood doesn't have it.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:25 - 1:05:27)
You could level it by. .

[Speaker 5] (1:05:27 - 1:05:27)
. Not having the requirement.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:27 - 1:05:28)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:28 - 1:05:37)
It's a good point. We didn't really, I will tell you truthfully, discuss the parking requirement in any detail. The one per dwelling unit is fairly typical.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:39 - 1:05:49)
Understood. I'm just trying to think of the future. Sure.

And I'm trying to think, do they think that's a smart barrier to housing?

[Speaker 5] (1:05:50 - 1:05:58)
Yeah. I mean, it's a good point. Open to discussion on that, for sure.

Or if you're in a proximity to the MBTA.

[Speaker 9] (1:06:00 - 1:06:07)
A half mile, three quarters of a mile, one mile. Maybe that could be excluded or discussed further.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:08 - 1:06:27)
The parking requirement, again, could be, you know, we could change it. We could leave it in there, and it would just be part of a review that may happen. Sure.

I don't want it to necessarily be the only thing that triggers that review, right? Because I know that the review process is costly for the homeowner.

[Speaker 8] (1:06:29 - 1:07:58)
Well, can I jump in for a second? So a good example of this is, personally, I think that a good number of the ADUs that might be constructed in town will be to accommodate shrinking households or people who would like to age in place or people like me who had a parent that lives in town, and my mother now lives with me. It's not a separate, I mean, but if it were an ADU and she had her separate entrance, she lives with me.

But she no longer drives. But she did when she moved in 12 years ago, and she had a car, and I had a spot for her because it gave her the ability to, you know, when both my husband and I have lives and are working, you know, she's not going to walk down the street and hop on a bus to go somewhere. I mean, if she needed to go to the store or visit a friend or go to the senior center or something, she had a way to get around.

Now, she no longer has a car because she doesn't need it. So I do think that, you know, that's a, not everyone is going to be kind of a younger person that can hop on a bike, even in the wintertime, and find their way to, you know, to a bus stop or the railway station. I think that that could very well be a, you know, part of the population for whom this type of situation works.

However, you know, we live in the suburbs. It's not like in downtown Boston you can sort of walk everywhere. It's a little different, but.

[Speaker 3] (1:07:59 - 1:08:32)
I just, I mean, I guess I think that, you know, just because there isn't a parking requirement doesn't mean that that scenario you just described can't happen. It's more about the person who wants to create an ADU for their parent. Maybe they don't have a car and they don't need a parking space for the ADU, but the town is saying to them, you have to have one for this ADU in order to do it, and that makes them making that change more difficult.

[Speaker 8] (1:08:32 - 1:08:41)
Well, I think the permit granting authority would just waive that then. I mean, I don't think that's something that would be a problem in my estimation when we do that sort of thing.

[Speaker 3] (1:08:42 - 1:08:45)
Yeah, I just, I don't, I don't, I guess I agree with what Sean was saying.

[Speaker 2] (1:08:45 - 1:10:12)
I don't see the value of doing it at all. I've tried to keep them, I've tried to get better at tuning into things that feel as though they may place an unfair burden on somebody that may be a little less property rich or have the same, you know, benefit of a neighborhood in Solomon City that may be a little different. And so I think when we look at the characteristics of neighborhoods, getting back to this sense of inclusivity and fairness and equity, if property is a parking standard in a world of rideshares and Ubers in the future, it's getting, I think, better.

I actually, I don't despair about the future. I think there are good ideas coming. We just haven't heard all of them yet.

And I do think there may be many ways to ameliorate this sense that everybody needs a car. I don't believe that to be a standard that we should have here. We're truly getting back to the principles of trying to add more housing and add more housing in a really smart way, not really disruptive.

You know, this is a really niche, smart, intelligent way, and I really appreciate the planning board's efforts here. I just want to press that. I think it may be a way for us to have less cars in Swanson.

Can you imagine that? Well, that's a good point.

[Speaker 8] (1:10:13 - 1:11:07)
Less cars in Swanson. Yeah, I mean, I think that if somebody was really, you know, felt that they could live without a car and they were, it wasn't an additional burden for them to have one, that they'd probably look for an apartment that was closer to public transportation. I mean, that would be what I would do if I didn't have a car and I knew I needed to get around somehow.

It doesn't make sense to live in somebody's backyard, and that's just not a good choice for you. You look for housing someplace else. To be perfectly honest, I think that this is the way these bylaws are being written right now.

Marblehead has one parking space. Nahant is proposing one parking space. Beverly has proposed this.

Salem is not, but Salem is a very different community. So, you know, you have a lot more where there were a lot of their ADU anticipated growth is. There's immediate access to public transportation.

Just a different situation.

[Speaker 3] (1:11:08 - 1:11:11)
I guess it's just it wouldn't prohibit having a parking space.

[Speaker 8] (1:11:11 - 1:11:15)
I just selfishly ask the question because I don't have parking at my house at all.

[Speaker 7] (1:11:15 - 1:11:33)
I don't have a driveway, so I park on the street. My husband parks on the street, and so if ever we wanted, we would just be precluded by right from this, and four other houses on my street would, and I know we're the exception by far, not the rule. But if any of those four houses were thinking about something like this, then it would just be another layer that they would have to go through.

[Speaker 8] (1:11:33 - 1:11:50)
So that's the only reason I ask. So again, and I think that there should be a process in place whereby someone can ask for relief in that respect. You know, they can make an argument for relief and I can't see why that wouldn't be granted.

There's probably no parking left on that street.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:50 - 1:12:09)
So I think, but I think that the nuance here is yes, there could be a process whether or not there should be a process or whether or not that's a reason enough to trigger a process. I think it's the, I think everybody's pro, I think you're hearing everything in favor of this, what you guys are doing, but actually pushing it one step farther saying, should there even be a process if you don't have a parking space?

[Speaker 8] (1:12:09 - 1:12:24)
Right. And we'd also want to check and see what the, you know, we're sort of following very closely what the state's draft version of the bylaw is. So I'm not quite certain if they're requiring, because it seems like most of the things, most of the ADU bylaws I look at do require the space.

[Speaker 5] (1:12:25 - 1:12:30)
It's interesting. And I was not expecting to have a discussion about parking minimums tonight. I'm happy to have that discussion.

[Speaker 10] (1:12:31 - 1:12:32)
I really am.

[Speaker 5] (1:12:34 - 1:12:45)
Well, I'm the walking biking transit guy. So, you know, if we want to have another conversation about parking minimums in town and how that's regulated in the zoning code, I'm happy to do that.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:45 - 1:13:21)
But that's, but that's so I hear you on that, but that's not actually the conversation we're trying to have. Right. So it's actually, this is about saying, is this a, a use that is so important that it actually on, unlike just the standard single family use?

Yeah. Is this a use that's so important that it actually merits special consideration for parking as opposed to traditional residential new construction? Yes, that there's always parking requirements.

So I think that, so it's not really quite a parking discussion as much as an ADU parking discussion. Right. And so it just encourage you to look at it that way.

I think.

[Speaker 8] (1:13:23 - 1:14:05)
Another point is, you know, is, is the one parking spot meant to be like, that's the maximum number of extra cars you can have at an ADU. We are saying that ADUs can be, you know, two bedrooms. So up to, what did we say?

I think we initially thought of the three people or something like that. It is conceivable that, that people that live in the ADU might actually need two cars for some reason. I'm not saying that's going to happen, but it's conceivable.

So, you know, I wonder if that's, I'd like to speak to the, our attorney town council about that as well and see if it was also to say you, you need to provide space for one car, but no more than one car.

[Speaker 5] (1:14:06 - 1:14:13)
Yeah. I don't want to go the other way too. Right.

And like, say, you know, what if the family does have two cars, right.

[Speaker 8] (1:14:13 - 1:14:13)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (1:14:14 - 1:14:17)
And you don't want to provide a parking maximum either. You want it to be flexible.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:17 - 1:14:17)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (1:14:18 - 1:14:19)
Well, we've never provided a parking maximum.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:19 - 1:17:38)
Yeah. In our bylaw, we have that, but yeah. I think there's this, I think this just run.

I'm so grateful you're raising it. And I think with some polishing, this is like, we should be doing this and I'll be happy to support it. I think that we're talking about trying to just decide between a balance of income and balance of interest.

Right. Sometimes we always are dealing with balance of interest, right? So which interest is that which we should be giving greater weight to here.

And so we taught, I just talked about parking a second ago, but now let's talk about parking in a driveway versus one's right to park in a public street, right. Our town tends to put that times a greater weight on one's ability to park a car in a public street. If it's not their public street in front of their house, right.

We regulate each parking pretty extremely in our town. We regulate a lot of parking, not, not for revenue, not for turnover for commercial reasons, not for those reasons we do it for other reasons. Right.

And so there is this conflict that I think it's a policy thing for us to, and I know historically you're trying to take this, take us a step further. And what's interesting is I think you're hearing some members of the board anyways, that saying, well, maybe take it an even bigger step. Yeah.

Don't be so tentative in oh nine. I'm, I'm, I'm grateful that we included the language. I, I actually asked it to be included in oh nine, but in oh nine, I thought, Oh boy, look how wonderful forward thinking we are.

But you know, here we are later on and you're like, my God, how timid we were even, even in oh nine, right. It was, it's very restrictive and very controlling. So the other thing I would just ask you to take in consideration about is other regulatory processes.

A lot of these carriage houses are located in a district, which is a historic district. And if you've been looking, the historic district at times, hasn't approved certain improvements to buildings or has negotiated with homeowners to say, we really don't want you putting windows here. This is not the way it would be.

It wouldn't be this size window. It'd be this size window. And again, totally understand from a historical perspective, but, but is that taking priority again, balance of interests?

Is that going to take priority over again, making a modification to an existing 80 you, where you want to put in a bathroom, right? And it's going to require external penetrations. It's going to require some windows that don't exist today or bedrooms that require windows that don't exist today because you can't have a legal bedroom without it.

Things of that nature that then get once wrapped into another process, which also is another layer of money and time that just makes it two things. It makes them not want to go through the process. Back in oh nine, when we did the ADU bylaw and you guys correctly believe it now, but we actually had a compliance provision.

We said, if you within, I can't remember what it was, six months or whatever it was of this bylaw being passed. If you register it with the building inspector or with town hall or whoever it was, you would be grandfathered in like you would be automatically there. Right.

And so we were like, isn't that great? We did this and ended it. Do you know how many ADUs in the town of Swanscot were registered in that six month period?

[Speaker 16] (1:17:39 - 1:17:39)
Zero.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:40 - 1:17:40)
Right.

[Speaker 16] (1:17:41 - 1:17:42)
Not one.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:42 - 1:19:08)
So the good intention was there, right. To try and do it and get people to come in and do it, but it doesn't. Yeah.

So what happens is human nature is we're going to continue doing what we do now, which is we have ADUs in a lot of places here. Not as many as we think there could be, but we have them here. There's hundreds and hundreds of those around our town here, but they're not, they're just doing it.

Right. And so I think again, just a balance of interest here, which is the easier we make it for them, the more likely it is that they're going to comply that we're going to know about them. Right.

Because at some point there is a fire safety issue. There is a whole bunch of things we're going to want to know. We're going to want them registering because we're going to want to know that's an address functionally.

Right. When there's a call there and they don't just run to the front door of the house at the carriage house in the backs where the call is coming from. Right.

So there's just, yep. So I think you're, we're totally encouraging you in every possible way, maybe with more, right. Saying, think about it, have the conversation to, to even be.

And I appreciate the, you're being, I think probably politically, pragmatistic, pragmatistic. You're being political pragmatist in, in some of these choices. Right.

But like I said earlier, I think it's okay to go, you know, build consensus obviously, but at the same time, let's get somewhere where in, in 12 years from now, 14 years from now, we're not going to look back and say, boy, we'll be tentative 14 years ago. Well, just like 2009 for me. Right.

I was, I was tentative.

[Speaker 8] (1:19:08 - 1:19:16)
I understand what you're saying. Can you be more specific in terms of what you'd like us to be? And I'm assuming that you think we should be a bit more progressive.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:17 - 1:19:23)
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's a term.

I just think it's a more, more open with what can be as of right.

[Speaker 8] (1:19:24 - 1:19:26)
I don't think there's a, can you give me an example?

[Speaker 1] (1:19:26 - 1:20:58)
I personally wouldn't require a parking, obviously parking for, again, you, you've already created criteria. If you think about it this way, you've already created criteria that the building has to either be in place or it has to be in an existing structure, right? You've basically eliminated expansions, except for vertical expansions, because you don't allow any decrease in pervious area of pervious area.

That's true. And you don't allow any trees to come down. so no, I'm just, just so within that, you've already, we've already kind of agreed a volume of space, right?

We don't know who lives in the 150 years that house has been there. There's at times it could be right now. One woman lives there, but that's because she's outlived her husband and her 17 kids, right?

And, and so that at one point there could have been 17 kids in that house, right? Living in that volume of space. So we don't really dictate space in houses for how many people live there.

So the ADU all of a sudden doing that and saying, well, because then now the prospect of more people, we need more parking. It disregards the fact that, you know, Mrs. Johnson's living in this house anyways, with so much space and, you know, you know, anyways, it's just, it's obviously facts to go the other way. I'm just encouraging you to be that the parking's a example.

I think there's so many, there's a couple of tweaks here and there, and I'm happy to give you my individual comments so that I'd like to see them, but I also have town council make sure town council has obviously gone through this, but just to, just to do what I think we're just, you know, little things. There's a limitation on detached structures. Can't be more than 15 feet tall and one and a half stories.

But if the detached structure is there today, do you care if it's 15?

[Speaker 8] (1:20:59 - 1:21:00)
Right. Yeah. We talked about that.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:00 - 1:21:10)
And so I think there's just, and I think so it's all, all in line with doing, making this more agreed to happen. So it's not to restrict at all. Anything you guys are talking about doing, it's actually trying to make.

[Speaker 8] (1:21:11 - 1:21:58)
Right. And I think that's a, that's a very good point that came up today. And you don't have a final draft, which we will provide to you for your review, but that would be, that's something that, that we had an issue with in terms of, I mean, it would sort of disqualifies so many of these garages and carriage houses and so forth.

which is not what we want to do. Right. We, we would really like to encourage that use.

As you know, we know there's somewhere in the, in the area of 700 detached garages. In swamp Scott. So I just, that you know about, there could be, I think that's a, you know, that's a, that's a good opportunity.

[Speaker 7] (1:21:59 - 1:22:01)
Sorry. How many of those garages are in the Olmstead district?

[Speaker 5] (1:22:02 - 1:22:08)
That is a hand count that Marissa did. Actually, she went in the map, counted everything.

[Speaker 8] (1:22:08 - 1:22:10)
That's a detached structure in the Olmstead district. Specifically.

[Speaker 5] (1:22:11 - 1:22:11)
We don't know that.

[Speaker 8] (1:22:12 - 1:22:16)
I'm just using that as an example. I know. I mean, close to almost all of them.

[Speaker 7] (1:22:16 - 1:23:11)
Cause I just think to Peter's point that we should just have a more broader discussion about how some of these projects become cost prohibitive because of the constraints that the historic district is, you know, diligently trying to maintain something like adding a bedroom requires a window. That window goes from a thousand dollars to $2,500 because it needs to be the correct pain and needs to be wood. and so then the, that times five, six, seven things, the whole project becomes cost prohibitive and now you're not doing it.

And now your mother-in-law is still living at her 1800 square foot home. So I just want to think more broadly about those types of ideas that are stopping people from even starting these conversations. Right.

[Speaker 8] (1:23:11 - 1:24:04)
And, and not just, you know, the, the actual area of the detached. So, I mean, as I was telling Mike, I have friends that are over on Devons road that have a, you know, it's a house on Devons with a garage that's set quite far back in their yard. And it's about 11 or 1200 square feet and they hope to renovate that and live there.

And as they get older and then rent out their home, but already just the size of that garage would make it too big for them to renovate. So there are those issues as well. So I'd like to, I'd like to make that, you know, to encourage the conversion of garages and detached carriage houses, whatever it may be.

I I'd like to see the, the restrictions on those loosened up quite a bit. We'd have to just rewrite that into our own code.

[Speaker 5] (1:24:04 - 1:24:36)
I think that if I may, what you're seeing and what you're correctly pointing out is that the bylaw was at one time trying to allow a detached structure in the beginning, the inception of it, right. And now it's like a new one. And so some of the things like the limit of the height or the 900 square foot requirement, right.

Those were replying to new. They're still in there in this draft. So we have to pull them out and make this more tailored to an existing preexisting structure or we have to tweak them.

So.

[Speaker 2] (1:24:37 - 1:26:08)
Look, I think we're very fortunate. Like you're an architect, you're volunteering, you know, your expertise and Angela care about the characters more than anybody I know. And I know that it's balancing and it's always about balancing, but also is, you know, we've got to be pragmatic.

Your goals are to provide housing options for residents and homeowners looking to aid in place. That's important. The second one is providing a form of housing with less costly.

And third is, you know, increasing diversity of the characteristics of housing. And so the only thing I would suggest, And where do you think you have a barrier that bumps into those goals? Try to mitigate it or find a way to ensure that, you know, everybody in this town, every neighborhood is not going to bump into something that might not be consistent with your goals.

You know, Peter just had a story about 2009. Let's not replicate that. Let's find a way to say, no, we're actually, we mean business.

I mean, we really want to get into a ADU phase here. They can't help Swampskits aging population. We literally have more folks aging in swamp.

We're the greatest community out of the 34 cities and towns in Essex County. We need this 10 years ago. And we've got things to do.

So really appreciate the work. Just a quick question.

[Speaker 9] (1:26:08 - 1:26:24)
Just as a practical matter, I'm just curious, Angela and Mike, if the planning board has had discussions as to what would make this program a success. I mean, what are the goals? You know, how many, how many ADUs are we going to add in year one and year five and year 10?

[Speaker 5] (1:26:25 - 1:27:30)
Well, we haven't put a number to it, but I will say talking to our planning staff, you know, in the last three years, there's Marissa can count on her two hands, the number of ADUs that have been allowed in this town. So in also talking, we had a open house, I'll call it in January. And then I also spoke to the senior center in January about this topic.

And even the most progressive towns in Massachusetts, Amherst, for example, on this issue are producing less than two dozen per, per year. It's not a lot. So, you know, I'd like to get on that level.

Right. Just to allow if there's 600, right. We're talking 2%, right.

Or something like that per year of those are getting turned over to become ADUs. It's not a lot, huge number, but it's just enough to allow folks like our seniors to have choice. I can't put a number to it.

I just want to see success.

[Speaker 9] (1:27:30 - 1:27:30)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (1:27:30 - 1:27:34)
So we're not going to just snap our fingers and have, and have 600. Certainly not.

[Speaker 9] (1:27:34 - 1:27:35)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (1:27:36 - 1:28:16)
You know, just piggybacking on that. One thing that I hear quite a bit is people's concern about density in town. So, you know, based on what you just said there, I think that's important to really put out there that all of a sudden, we're not going to have another 1500 people living in town.

I mean, that's, it doesn't look like there's going to be this mad dash for ADUs, but the density issue is something I think we can't, we can't ignore. Right. And we have to be respectful of that's part of that.

That's just like, that's something I hear constantly and I just want to make sure that we pay mind to it.

[Speaker 5] (1:28:17 - 1:28:22)
Definitely understand. We've been trying to pull it, walk that tight rope and you noticed it.

[Speaker 1] (1:28:22 - 1:28:46)
But what's the tight rope. I mean, I think let's, let's have that conversation. I hear what you're saying.

Cause I, we all hear it like the density thing, but what's, what's the tight rope. I mean, you're either going to do a policy that's meeting a policy objective. Right.

Right. But it can't be a policy objective to a point where we only want enough affordable housing. The most who's enough and who's making that decision.

I'm just saying, it's again, it's not, I'm not, I'm looking at you Mike because you're here, but it's not you.

[Speaker 5] (1:28:46 - 1:29:00)
I'm looking at, but I'm just saying like, I hear that, but yeah, you know the most liberal version, liberal, whatever, meaning open version of this bylaw would allow detached new structure.

[Speaker 2] (1:29:00 - 1:29:00)
Yeah. Right.

[Speaker 5] (1:29:01 - 1:30:13)
Right. And in fact, if we were going to talk about, uh, the most, most liberal version of that Portland, Maine allows two ADUs per lot, right. That is, you know, by and large, very progressive on this front.

So, you know, okay. We heard that perspective from this person who builds ADUs and Portland's production is higher. Um, we talked about just allowing new detached, right.

And we talked about frankly, the politics of that. and Mary Ellen's concern and the concerns of folks in town about density, rightfully so for a very dense community. So we walked it back again to what you see before you, which is what we thought reflected the character of the town in that there's a lot of preexisting detached structures, right.

You can always by the mechanics of town meeting, I'm being frank, right. You can do a version of it like you did in 2009 and then another version. And then if you fail, you have to wait, what is it?

Two years. No. Well, it's a zoning.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:14 - 1:30:16)
You would, there's, there's things, there's things we can do to mitigate that.

[Speaker 16] (1:30:17 - 1:30:17)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:17 - 1:32:14)
Like, yeah. And so, so I think that it's just, and again, you, I feel like you're just the one we're talking to. First of all, I can't tell you the number of people have told me they've seen you talking about this and how much they've appreciated your outreach and that you've taken the time and you've gone to the senior center and you've gone done those things.

I mean, Mike, you're doing things that in the past people haven't always done. And so it's really appreciated the effort you're making, you know, to do that. And it really, it's going to be the main reason why this is going to pass.

Right. And I'm just telling you that right now, because that, that matters, right. It's, So I think it's, But I think we're, so we're taking the conversation a little bit beyond which is, you know, Mary Ellen's raising a really good point about density.

We always hear it, but if we just do a critical analysis of density, 2010 to 2020, we increased by, and he's around number 1500 people. Does that mean, tell me what the planning initiative was to get 1500 new people here. It wasn't a single new planning initiative.

We didn't do a single planning initiative that was built out just as we planned. We said, oh, there it is. We expected 1,500, we knew it was gonna go here, and that's what happened.

It didn't. It went by exception, right? And why'd those people come here?

It's not like we had the welcome flag for them. Like, we didn't have a welcome flag. We weren't recruiting people.

We weren't marketing ourselves as the place to be, right? They were coming here because every community in the greater radius of Boston got denser. Virtually every community.

There's very few exceptions to that, right? And so there's kind of inevitability about density as part of the reality of life. So we can either control it or we can not control it.

At the same time, we're dealing with the 3A zoning, the MBTA, which I'm so grateful the planning board's been so proactive on recognizing that. That's just, we have that obligation. That's not affordable housing.

That's quantity of housing, right? That's the state saying, yes, we want affordable housing, but we also want more housing generally because more housing generally is going to help supply and therefore pricing will stabilize more, right? So that's not even affordable housing, right?

[Speaker 8] (1:32:14 - 1:32:22)
I'll also point out that we rezoned the Glover years ago as a 40-yard district so that it could accommodate more dense use.

[Speaker 1] (1:32:22 - 1:33:29)
Yeah, and so no, the planning board, you guys have been on this. There's no criticism at all in this. It's more about just a kind of policy decision.

You have to, it's very hard to be timid about these things, right? It's kind of you have to say, hey, we've got to recognize if this, if tomorrow 641 property owners came and said they wanted an ADU, are we okay with that, right? Now, you can just have that comment.

In the extreme, again, it's not gonna happen. It's totally unrealistic. That's not really what's gonna happen, but in the extreme, you kind of have that conversation, say, or are we purposely putting governors on this?

And we were using words like character and things of that nature, and I always cringe. We are already as dense as we are, and when we use words like character, I cringe a little bit, because I'm not quite sure what it means. My house is gonna be as beautiful with two more neighbors in my neighborhood than as it is now, I guess, but I think we should have that conversation, and you guys are.

You guys have been on the forefront, and Angela, you have in particular, and I applaud it, and I think that's important just to recognize those things, but let's, this is about creating an affordable housing opportunity, just an affordable housing choice, if you will.

[Speaker 8] (1:33:29 - 1:33:33)
I think we should be a little careful we're using the word affordable here, because.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:33 - 1:33:34)
Lowercase affordable.

[Speaker 8] (1:33:35 - 1:33:40)
Lowercase, because it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not gonna cost any less to construct than everything else costs.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:40 - 1:33:41)
No, no, no, it's not deed restricted, but.

[Speaker 8] (1:33:41 - 1:33:43)
You know, construction is very expensive no matter where it goes.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:43 - 1:33:46)
It's about giving that Mrs. Johnson.

[Speaker 8] (1:33:46 - 1:33:47)
It's another option.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:47 - 1:33:49)
Yeah, it's about giving Mrs. Johnson an opportunity to get revenue.

[Speaker 8] (1:33:49 - 1:33:49)
That's right.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:50 - 1:34:30)
To support her ability to stay in her house if that's what she wants, or for her to go live in the ADU and make the life decision, which I think is everyone's right, to be able to say, I wanna stay here. Help me stay here, but I think that's it's a policy thing, and it's tough. The last thing I'll say is I don't think you should expect we're giving you stuff in particular.

You should expect in return that this board at the end of the day is full-throated supporting you guys at town meeting. In my opinion, I don't think we have the right to sit here and give you unsolicited or even solicited advice without also you guys turning around and saying, okay, select board. We want your full-throated endorsement at town meeting.

[Speaker 8] (1:34:31 - 1:34:55)
Well, and that is essentially what we're here for, is to ask you to say, yes, we think you should put this on the warrant and to allow us to proceed with working on a final draft so that knowing that we do have a slot on the warrant. And of course, you'll be seeing that again before we have our public hearing, which is on, I forget, April 20.

[Speaker 5] (1:34:55 - 1:34:56)
End of the month, yeah.

[Speaker 8] (1:34:56 - 1:34:56)
End of the month.

[Speaker 5] (1:34:56 - 1:34:57)
Fourth or something.

[Speaker 8] (1:34:57 - 1:37:07)
Right. Yeah. So we will be doing that.

Just to your point, and I'm gonna bring up one more thing. I think it's a really important topic about density and about why aren't we doing freestanding brand new construction ADUs. I'll be very honest.

I'm a vocal opponent to that. I first of all don't think it would pass town meeting. I second of all don't.

I do think that's where we get into character issues. And character meaning, it's people's, it's everyone who lives in town has their right to preserving their own neighborhood development patterns and character. It's people's right to privacy.

And it's also, it creates tremendous problems in terms of public safety. For example, I could put a 900 square foot little house in my backyard, but there's no way for the fire department to access it. There are a lot of issues that come with that that don't make any sense.

And I do think that it disrupts, it's not working with our existing building patterns. And even though we might be expanding the use and expanding the ability to create housing within an existing lot, whether it's converting a carriage house or a garage, or adding on to an existing dwelling, I think that adding more building on that space and all the downstream effects that has from energy use to water runoff to drainage, every other issue that comes up with it, I think could snowball into something problematic. And I'd rather see us try something that is much more likely to happen, that is actually much more cost effective for the person developing it, than having to start with some kind of new construction.

So that's my opinion. It's not the opinion of the rest of the board.

[Speaker 1] (1:37:07 - 1:37:24)
I don't think you heard anybody actually on that specific issue. Specifically say that issue, which I think we were talking, got into this in parking, but generally, you're right, there are some reasons. I don't necessarily, we may not fully agree on the reasons to do it or not, but I understand why that is the way it is right now.

[Speaker 8] (1:37:24 - 1:37:32)
Yeah, just, and again, I wanna point out that that's something that other board members don't necessarily agree with me on.

[Speaker 5] (1:37:33 - 1:37:36)
It was a robust discussion. Yes.

[Speaker 1] (1:37:38 - 1:38:13)
So I'm gonna, I'll be happy to mark up and give you comments and suggestions. I guess others would be great if we all did, so that you guys got them directly to Mike, maybe just to have those conversations, and then we're interested in knowing that town council has thought it through, and I think we would be, even if it's not on this town meeting, it would be interesting to understand what's the next steps to do regulatory conformity, right? If we really are trying to do it, are there other hurdles that we haven't yet addressed that we need to address?

And just start having those conversations, because that way it's not form over function. This is legitimately freed up an opportunity for Mrs. Johnson.

[Speaker 8] (1:38:14 - 1:38:48)
Exactly, and that's the way I'd like to look at it, is creating an opportunity for people that, to make it easier for someone to get this done, as whether it serves them, and whether they wanna live in it, or they wanna provide it as a place for someone else to live. I'd like to be able to present this to town meeting and have it embraced, like, yeah, instead of feeling like there's objection, I'd like to truly be able to express our excitement about it and present it as a great idea, and something that can get passed and embraced by the community. And I'm hoping that that's how it will go.

[Speaker 2] (1:38:49 - 1:39:25)
Look, we talk about, this increases the overall valuation of the town. This is about improving a lot of properties. This is really, there's some economics to this that really make a lot of sense.

So we shouldn't shy away from that either. I'd love to hear about Anne Hurst and some of the new growth, and it doesn't sound like, and there's no problem with this kind of growth, but this is about some senior housing or some inclusionary housing. And for me, that, slums kids get plenty of room for that, really.

[Speaker 9] (1:39:26 - 1:39:49)
But it also creates housing, two bedrooms for up to three people for less, for right at or less than $300,000, which is not an access point currently. I don't think there are any properties other than a small condo in town that would be accessible to anyone at that price point.

[Speaker 8] (1:39:50 - 1:39:52)
So that's the- I think that's very appealing.

[Speaker 9] (1:39:52 - 1:39:52)
Yes.

[Speaker 7] (1:39:54 - 1:40:42)
I'd be curious to know of the, although you said two hands, folks who have gotten accessory dwelling units built, the ones who have applied and haven't, if any of them would, what prohibited them from being able to do so? And if any of that can be incorporated into this so that they would not be prohibited in the future, just because those are the folks you wanna target because they wanna do it. They bought in.

They like the idea. They know it's gonna work for them. They're trying to leverage it for an aging parent or a sibling who needs a place to stay or for whatever reason.

If you could take a look at those applicants and see why they, why it failed, and we could, I'm curious as to that data, but I'm also very supportive.

[Speaker 8] (1:40:42 - 1:40:44)
I'm sure we can get access to it. I don't know.

[Speaker 5] (1:40:45 - 1:40:50)
I wish Marissa was here because she knows each application address and what the issue was.

[Speaker 4] (1:40:53 - 1:40:56)
Have you spoken with the historic, has the historic gone?

[Speaker 5] (1:40:58 - 1:41:35)
No, I actually have not spoken to the Historic Commission. I know that's not the answer you wanted to hear, but. No, I know.

We should speak to them. I'll make it a point to reach out. Because it was an interesting discussion that we started to have about the development and permitting process, right?

And what supersedes what potentially is, as you were saying, an ADU, a use that is superseding the historic review in some way. Not something I had to consider. Yeah, no, it's just something.

[Speaker 1] (1:41:36 - 1:42:12)
I think it would be interesting to hear their feedback. So for example, there's a garage door. Historically, there's a garage door on a carriage house.

And so do we have to, in those districts, are we now going to be keeping the garage door and not putting windows in it and having to, on the inside, build a wall so it's not a garage? I mean, just all, I totally get it from a historical perspective. If that's the balance of interest, if all you're thinking about is historic, but now we're saying, hey, there's another balance of interest here.

Where's the relative rate and how do we handle it? I mean, that's all. Because you're right.

A large number of these opportunities are sitting in the Olmstead District.

[Speaker 8] (1:42:12 - 1:42:12)
Right, so that's a.

[Speaker 1] (1:42:13 - 1:42:20)
And I see Mary Chile here, who's like the chief proponent of the historic districts and also of affordable housing. So she gets the, and I would.

[Speaker 8] (1:42:21 - 1:42:22)
And Mary just told me.

[Speaker 1] (1:42:22 - 1:42:26)
She gets that balancing here, but there has to be, there can't be, we have to address it.

[Speaker 8] (1:42:26 - 1:42:26)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:42:26 - 1:42:33)
Because if we don't, then we're gonna be in a situation where we have all these buildings that just physically can't be altered to be habitable space and so therefore we haven't achieved it.

[Speaker 4] (1:42:33 - 1:42:34)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (1:42:34 - 1:42:51)
Right, I think you have to tie, I have to think you have to have a serious conversation with them. Well, that's the Historic District Commission. So yeah, we will have to have that conversation.

Just, you know, Mary just leaned over and told me that she's had an apartment in her house since a long time, 1997. Is that a legal assessment?

[Speaker 1] (1:42:51 - 1:42:53)
Don't answer, you don't have to answer that question, Mary.

[Speaker 8] (1:42:53 - 1:42:54)
Ranting it out a little bit.

[Speaker 11] (1:42:54 - 1:48:39)
You have the right to remain silent. I advise you not, no. No, no, no, no, 1997, we had a, we have an Italian-Victorian built into a hill.

So it's on Rockland Street. And the other comment I wanted to make, there are places all around this town, on Rockland Street particularly, that there were, after the World War II, there was such a shortage of housing that a lot of houses on our street, little pockets of a three-room apartment, a two-room apartment, you know, efficiency. Stan Bondilevich, famous Stan Bondilevich, the coach of Big Blue, lived in my house in the ground floor of my house, and it became like a rooming house at one point.

When 1997, we had this floor of the house, and we had two entrances, a driveway entrance, separate entrance, and went to the town and said, we would like to convert this, and Lou Gallo, the old Lou Gallo, who was the building's director, I think, at the time. Yep. We got the okay to do it, and we have been renting that for, since 1997.

It has a eat-in kitchen, a big bedroom-living room combined. It's like a large studio, and a handicap-accessible bathroom. So it is a perfect place for, when we get old, we can live down there.

We've had, it rented the entire time, and I have to say, from just in terms of swing space, during COVID, somebody had moved out. My kids were able to be there, except come visit and be separate. But the idea that it helps people who, my husband and I were public employees, educators, and we didn't have a lot of money at the time when we first moved in.

And to be perfectly honest, it helped us financially to have that money coming in, and it's always been rented. We've never had a problem. The neighbors have never had a problem.

There is a driveway. We do have a driveway, but the last comment that I would like to make is about the parking, which is why I ended up here tonight. We rent, we approve Elm Place with only one parking space, right?

So, and that was a huge issue when we were, when Elm Place was coming up. So I think we have to think very carefully about getting into these parking discussions, because if we allowed a building, affordable housing places with parking, with only one space, and when construction was very clear that that was what the standard is, and that part of town is very, very dense, as we know, which is one of the reasons why I was against that project, but it passed. So I think all of these, we have to be consistent.

I think, Peter, you just raised it. How do we balance all of these issues, and how do you make a public policy that's going to include all? You're not gonna please everyone, but I think that the idea that it's not just for older people, that was my other point that I wanted to make tonight.

It is, we've had single, it's always been one person that has lived down in our place, but it could be it was a student, it was people that really didn't have a lot of money, and we've kept the, I don't want to tell you what the rent is, because my oldest son, who we call the capitalist in the family, keeps saying, you've got to raise the rent on that. But what my husband and I, just our idea of giving back is that we have kept the rent low because we believe that this is a way that we can contribute to the town, and we can contribute to somebody, the greater good. We could be charging more if we wanted to, probably the going rate.

We've chosen not to. It's been fine, and it's been, we've never had a problem, it's never been, it's always been an adult, but I think the other piece, too, is we shouldn't just be thinking about seniors in this. It really needs to be thinking about young families who cannot find a place to live, and that is just, it is really important.

So family, I see these, I don't know, my husband and I keep walking around the neighborhood, how do these young families afford this? We wouldn't have been able to afford it. So thank you, I appreciate that, and I would also suggest information, information, information, public media, just that bring people along, because it's going to, people that are used to living in their own home can't imagine having renting, and that's, I think we have to kind of break, move that people beyond that, and we don't, we have, one last thing, we have a musician that lives down there.

He actually lived with us for seven years. We thought about moving. He got concerned about us moving, so he moved out for a while, and he actually came back to live with us.

We've had him, Mark, for about 10 years, and we get to hear beautiful music. He's a music teacher, and I just wanted to give him a big plug, because he's a great tenant, so thank you. Thanks, Mary.

Thanks, Mary.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:40 - 1:48:41)
Very helpful, Mary, thank you.

[Speaker 3] (1:48:43 - 1:49:01)
So I think you've gotten some good feedback and general support. Is there a, other than as soon as possible, like when we, if we were to email you additional comments on your schedule, like what's the date that you want to throw to us, just as, not that moral.

[Speaker 8] (1:49:01 - 1:49:04)
We'll ask Marissa to follow up on all those specifics.

[Speaker 3] (1:49:04 - 1:49:04)
Okay.

[Speaker 8] (1:49:04 - 1:49:05)
You and the board.

[Speaker 3] (1:49:06 - 1:49:08)
Okay, all right. Thanks.

[Speaker 8] (1:49:09 - 1:49:25)
And please feel free to send her, you can call me, you can call Mike, you can send everything to Marissa, but anything that you think of at any time that you'd like us to consider, you know, while we have a couple more days, it's always welcome, so thank you.

[Speaker 5] (1:49:26 - 1:49:27)
Thank you. Great.

[Speaker 11] (1:49:27 - 1:49:27)
Thank you, guys.

[Speaker 5] (1:49:28 - 1:49:30)
Thanks for spending your hour with us.

[Speaker 11] (1:49:32 - 1:49:33)
Thank you. Thanks.

[Speaker 3] (1:49:35 - 1:50:23)
All right, moving on to the budget. I think Amy Sorrow is with us, or she was. Yes, she is.

Amy. Hi. So, we have not really had a discussion on the budget as a board, so I don't know if you all just want to just go through as finance committee does, and just go through the budget, sort of department by department, if questions come up.

Does that make sense, as an approach to this?

[Speaker 7] (1:50:24 - 1:50:27)
Do these names on top matter, because I happen to have one that has your name on it?

[Speaker 3] (1:50:28 - 1:50:30)
No, I don't think I have a special one.

[Speaker 7] (1:50:31 - 1:50:32)
All right, well.

[Speaker 3] (1:50:32 - 1:50:36)
They're all different. They're all the same. They're all customized, so you're.

[Speaker 16] (1:50:36 - 1:50:37)
Yeah, Neil, what do I do now?

[Speaker 3] (1:50:40 - 1:51:15)
I just put the names that everyone got one. Okay. Okay, so we'll just go through, and I'll just stop if we get to a place where you have a question.

All right. Moderator, select board, finance committee, town administrator, accounting, assessing.

[Speaker 7] (1:51:15 - 1:51:17)
We have a select board question.

[Speaker 3] (1:51:17 - 1:51:17)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (1:51:19 - 1:51:21)
What does this community programs line fund?

[Speaker 2] (1:51:23 - 1:51:23)
So.

[Speaker 7] (1:51:25 - 1:51:26)
Thanks, Mary Ellen.

[Speaker 2] (1:51:26 - 1:52:55)
So we've put community program, we put that line in there probably five years ago, and this line has been used to fund some of the community initiatives, such as the annual pride event, or Juneteenth event, or community programs that we've supported through recreation. Initially, I think we started Swamptoberfest through the town administrator's office, or Board of Selectmen's office, and I collaborated with select board members. But it really does support some of those community initiatives that the select board and town administrator are looking to coordinate.

This actually was dropped by $10,000. I made that reduction when we were trying to balance the budget to the financial policies. Frankly, if we could bring that back up to $20,000, I think it would help us seed more community programs that I think we need.

I think we need more initiatives that would help bring more residents out of their homes and into community programs, and also could be used, you've talked a number of times, Katie, about subsidizing some programs for folks. That would be a line that really we could look at to help augment some of the community programs that may not be as accessible to others.

[Speaker 4] (1:52:55 - 1:53:08)
So it says the actual, the five-year actual on that number is 1643, and the 2022 actual was 53, and they have 10,000 in here, so it looks like it's a good number.

[Speaker 2] (1:53:08 - 1:53:11)
But we just started that.

[Speaker 7] (1:53:11 - 1:53:16)
I just wonder if it's a good number because we don't know how to utilize it, not because we're not utilizing it enough.

[Speaker 2] (1:53:17 - 1:53:47)
If you go back to 19, again, we went through a couple years of a pandemic, we couldn't use this. So the average, the five-year average. You just gotta keep an idea, like we started that just a couple years ago, yet the pandemic couldn't really use a lot of that.

I think if there was a need for another $10,000 in that line, this is really up to the board here, but we have used that for some extraordinary, extraordinarily successful community events, and I would just.

[Speaker 3] (1:53:47 - 1:53:59)
I think to Mary Ellen's point, though, I think that it will prevent us from expanding, which we all wanna do, but we shouldn't be losing any of the programs that we did.

[Speaker 4] (1:53:59 - 1:54:04)
Yeah, we should still be able to expand, you know, by quite a bit.

[Speaker 3] (1:54:04 - 1:54:05)
Right, so I think we're.

[Speaker 4] (1:54:05 - 1:54:18)
And I think we should also get to the point where we have a master plan, like a gross plan, an actual forecast on what programs you wanna have, you know, how many months there are out there. Get a better idea.

[Speaker 9] (1:54:18 - 1:54:22)
Well, I mean, I know that there are some programs that are self-funding.

[Speaker 4] (1:54:22 - 1:54:22)
Yeah.

[Speaker 9] (1:54:22 - 1:54:56)
And there are some programs that are gonna require, you know, lead money, sponsorships, and those are lumpy and largely unpredictable. So, you know, one of your goals is for us to have more of those community events, and I just wanna make sure that, you know, by the reduction of, you know, the $10,000 in the community programs, that that's not coming out of another budget. That's not coming out of recreation or to the detriment of not having a large event.

I know we're talking about having large events this summer.

[Speaker 2] (1:54:57 - 1:54:57)
No, I didn't know.

[Speaker 9] (1:54:57 - 1:54:58)
No, it is coming out.

[Speaker 2] (1:54:58 - 1:55:21)
Yeah, I had to make some regretful reductions to a lot of line items in this budget. I just wanna be clear, you know, we're cutting that by half, and so I'm pointing that out, you know, as we think about ways that we can make adjustments. You know, I want you to know that, you know, that's a line that, you know, I'd like to build back up to $20,000.

[Speaker 9] (1:55:21 - 1:55:22)
Yeah, as would I.

[Speaker 1] (1:55:22 - 1:55:35)
So we're talking community programs as other activities. Community programs don't mean activities. Community programs can mean anything.

Mary Ellen referenced earlier tonight communication, and we, regrettably, we've had multiple communication committees, and so.

[Speaker 4] (1:55:35 - 1:55:36)
Oh, yeah?

[Speaker 1] (1:55:36 - 1:57:22)
We have, and so, but we still haven't figured out communications, but communications is, you know, again, the fact that if you signed up for the town's energy program, you saved significantly. The fact that that wasn't in everyone's mailbox, like in the newsletter. Yes, we have a limited, doing a great job, but it's still a limited, you know, outreach on that.

So I'm speaking about mailers. I'm speaking about ways in which we can communicate better. That's community programs, because it's talking about community programs, about getting those things out, and so at the same time as you're cutting it back, and even if we did everything we're saying, it's taking away tools for you to be able to do some of the things we're talking about, because I don't think, candidly, I don't think volunteerism's gonna be enough on the communication side.

I think we have to figure out a better methodology, and it's a combination of many things, not just this line item. It's can we work with our billing companies to make sure that we're no longer sending things out that have one sheet of paper in it, that when we're sending something out special, we maximize to the greatest extent the weight of that mailer from the clerk's office, so that we're putting out every bit of information we can using the same postage, right? And we look at different billing companies.

The treasurer's gonna have my head for that, because we have a great billing company, but different billing companies that send out all our notices, such that there's another way that we can add something that's not totally finance utilitarian in our quarterly billings, right? Is there a way we can have, and those are gonna cost us money to do these things. So again, I appreciate, Sean, that you have to balance the budget, and you're sharing the pain by doing this, but these, in a 70-plus million dollar budget, these $10,000 community development, and you know this, I'm preaching to the choir, so I'm not telling you what I'm saying, but these $10,000 reductions in community programming actually touch more people than so many of the other line items here.

[Speaker 2] (1:57:22 - 1:57:32)
When I have to cut a million dollars out of a proposed budget before I can. No, no, I'm with you, there's no criticism. Everybody, like I make $110,000 reductions in.

[Speaker 7] (1:57:33 - 1:57:41)
Yeah, no, no, I gotcha. There's no criticism. My question was not the reduction, it was how do I spend it?

So, we're good. I mean, I just wanted to know, because it looks like it's.

[Speaker 1] (1:57:41 - 1:57:41)
What can we use it for?

[Speaker 7] (1:57:41 - 1:57:47)
How can we use it? What can we use it for? So that's generally, you know, the board.

I'll get there, that's more the question, right?

[Speaker 2] (1:57:47 - 1:58:08)
We work together on spending, you know, the individual select board members don't spend any of the money. We work on programs and we decide what really, you know, we're gonna advance. I didn't spend any of it last year.

So, I get a check.

[Speaker 7] (1:58:08 - 1:58:10)
I am, I'm sharing. I didn't get a back meal.

[Speaker 1] (1:58:11 - 1:58:43)
So, I'm seconding David's comment about actually saying that I'm not, I want to understand where our community programming dollars are. So, if we can get better clarity from you saying, hey, this is where they are and this is, I wanna make sure we're not robbing Peter to pay Paul here as well and taking away something else. And just because I think us saying we've gotta find $10,000 to put this back is, you know, that's not a heavy lift and it's not a slush fund.

It is stuff that is a lot of you to do community programming that no one would have ever even thought about doing that have actually fulfilled a lot of the objectives that we've talked about.

[Speaker 2] (1:58:43 - 1:59:42)
Look, I appreciate that. That's generally what I wanted to hear because as we go back and we have to prioritize, you know, maybe shifting a few other lines, it's just important for the board to understand, you know, some of these reductions are gonna mean probably less of some things if we don't have as much funds. And we had some, look, we've got some big ideas.

We have a idea about using Humphrey Street for a significant community event that would help small businesses but also help, you know, build community. And there's a lot of things that I think we see as a board and as a executive function. But certainly worth thinking about.

I'll come back and give a list of the community programs that we currently have, the ones that we're building because it is one of my goals to add more. And part of the way we're funding some of those new initiatives are using some of those dollars. And so I don't anticipate that we're gonna have as many given the level of funding.

[Speaker 9] (1:59:42 - 2:00:09)
And look, we've had success in sending mailers out with water and sewer bills. You know, we did a television visioning survey and we had incredible response as a result of packaging. So I think those dollars could be expended in a very, you know, in a manner that's conducive to improved communications.

So that's it.

[Speaker 6] (2:00:09 - 2:00:28)
All right, so. Ford, as you're coming up with ideas and having the discussions with the town administrator, I do wanna let you know of the 20,000 that's budgeted for this year. We still have about 19,300 of it.

Most of our programming does happen in the warmer months, but I just wanted to let you know that that's where we stand this year.

[Speaker 3] (2:00:29 - 2:00:35)
Yeah, thanks, Amy. All right, so moving on, we are down to assessing. I don't think it was there.

[Speaker 4] (2:00:35 - 2:00:45)
I do have a quick question on assessing. Our 2022 actual was just short of 65. That would be an employee and now we're down to 40.

[Speaker 6] (2:00:47 - 2:00:56)
We had a different employee who was in here under a contract and was working more hours than the current assessor was hired at.

[Speaker 4] (2:00:56 - 2:00:58)
Was that considered a part-time employee?

[Speaker 6] (2:00:59 - 2:01:10)
Yep, they're both considered part-time. They're both part-times? And where does Patriot Property fall in?

That's the contracted consulting line for 60,000. Okay.

[Speaker 3] (2:01:15 - 2:01:22)
All right, good, page one. Page two. Where are we, are we still on?

[Speaker 6] (2:01:22 - 2:01:27)
I do apologize for not actually putting page numbers on there. That's all right, still on assessing.

[Speaker 3] (2:01:30 - 2:01:31)
Treasury, legal and insurance.

[Speaker 4] (2:01:31 - 2:01:44)
I just have a question on legal. Are we shopping this out? Are we doing anything under legal?

I mean, I see that 20,000's out of it, but how do you come up with 20,000 out of it? Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:01:45 - 2:02:00)
I have had a few discussions about seeking proposals. I do believe that we will be looking at an RFP for some legal services in FY24. But the 20 is just a plug because you need to balance the budget, right?

[Speaker 1] (2:02:00 - 2:02:01)
I mean, just to put it out there.

[Speaker 10] (2:02:01 - 2:02:02)
I got it.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:02 - 2:02:06)
There's no way that you know that we're down 20. Right. I understand, I just wanted to.

[Speaker 3] (2:02:06 - 2:02:10)
Hoping that it'll be less. Yeah, I think that's just the direct answer there.

[Speaker 16] (2:02:10 - 2:02:10)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (2:02:10 - 2:02:14)
Yeah. All right, human resources.

[Speaker 4] (2:02:15 - 2:02:31)
Yeah, I have a question on human resources. Sorry. Does this human resource screening, things like that, does this cover both the fire and the police now that they're doing screening and testing?

[Speaker 6] (2:02:33 - 2:02:47)
Most of the fire and police is covered under the next line, which is recruitment and entrance exams. Okay. The screening is just the basic like personnel background checks.

The rest of it's covered in that second line.

[Speaker 4] (2:02:47 - 2:03:02)
Okay, so that, so you have 10,000, what is it? You have 10,000 in there? Yes.

For recruitment and entrance exams. And so does that cover their staffing? So if they're using.

[Speaker 2] (2:03:02 - 2:03:02)
Like overtime?

[Speaker 4] (2:03:03 - 2:03:05)
Yeah, if they're using their overtime, does it go in there? No.

[Speaker 3] (2:03:12 - 2:03:13)
Okay. Katie, do you have a question?

[Speaker 7] (2:03:13 - 2:03:16)
Yeah, I wanna talk about the diversity coordinator.

[Speaker 2] (2:03:16 - 2:03:17)
Yep.

[Speaker 7] (2:03:17 - 2:03:18)
Can you tell me what that is?

[Speaker 2] (2:03:20 - 2:03:42)
So that is a contracted position for diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's gonna help support the town's efforts to really be more focused on, you know, hiring for diversity, equity, and inclusion.

[Speaker 7] (2:03:42 - 2:03:57)
So I'm not well versed in these things. May Mary Ellen, you can help me. In 22, we budgeted $85,000 for this line item?

Yes. In 23, annual town meeting voted $10,000 for this line item?

[Speaker 2] (2:03:58 - 2:03:58)
That's right.

[Speaker 7] (2:03:58 - 2:04:02)
We are asking for 6,000 now in 24.

[Speaker 6] (2:04:03 - 2:05:02)
Yeah, so Katie, this was originally going to be a full-time in-house position, which was the town ministry's original request in the first year that you see it. For FY23, the intention was to try to get a consultant in and use some ARPA dollars to develop a first-year diversity, equity, and inclusion program with the remaining 10,000 to be to hire on a full-time person for this position. With our new HR director, he has made it his goal that this can be an in-house person that we already have and have them get the diversity, equity, and inclusion certificate, and then have this be a stipended position on top of one of their positions as we grow it.

So are we using any ARPA monies to, for a, so we're not using any ARPA money?

[Speaker 4] (2:05:02 - 2:05:05)
We're not doing anything to evaluate what our needs are?

[Speaker 6] (2:05:06 - 2:05:09)
We're just going- Not in the budget as it's presented to you right now, no.

[Speaker 9] (2:05:12 - 2:05:18)
Have we expended any of the $10,000 that was approved at town meeting in 23?

[Speaker 16] (2:05:18 - 2:05:19)
No.

[Speaker 7] (2:05:21 - 2:05:32)
I just feel like this is a real mis-line item that we should be looking at more closely. We'll have to have some more conversations about it.

[Speaker 1] (2:05:32 - 2:06:54)
So I love the idea, 100% with Katie, I love the idea of the fact that we, I believe this to be a miss, a hard stop period, and I believe it's a major step backwards from the commitment that we made at a point in time where we were engaging in a lot of very critical, difficult conversations, and I remain steadfastly critical with the fact that those conversations didn't continue, and I believe the budget is reflecting now in hard ink a step back from that commitment in budget, and I'm saying that to no doubt hear a response from the town administrator whose heart and mind I know exactly where he is, without question. So respectfully, I don't know that a stipended employee that already has a full stack of work getting DEI training is what we ever envisioned to be helping us look soup to nuts on policies, not just personnel, and policies, programming, and everything in our town to see where we've missed and where opportunities are, and we're several years later and we've done none of that. You have shepherded on your own in so many great ways, Sean, great things, and you really have, so my criticism's not at all, and I understand the financial realities, you're still balancing a budget here, and so please don't, I know you share the goals.

[Speaker 2] (2:06:54 - 2:06:58)
It's a step backwards, it's a step backwards. Let's be candid.

[Speaker 4] (2:06:58 - 2:07:00)
But we still have an opportunity with the ARPA fund.

[Speaker 2] (2:07:01 - 2:08:58)
Yeah, we do, we do. But that's one-time funds, that doesn't, we've now created a structural deficit. I just wanna just share, look, I have to work with a group of stakeholders, both on boards and employees, the HR director, we've gotta build a culture that is an environment for success for a DEI director, we don't have that right now, I just wanna be candid, we've gotta build that, and it takes time, and it takes effort.

Yes, we're doing things that are building a more inclusive workforce, and we're constantly focused on this, but we've gotta build more of an environment for success. There's one thing I've learned, is that we've gotta take this incrementally, and I have worked with a number of individuals that are DEI directors in other communities, and I've talked with them, and we've talked about how do we create that culture, how do we continue to build the environment where individuals are gonna be open to thinking more critically about our lack of diversity, our lack of inclusionary efforts, and look, it's not, I don't have a good excuse of why this isn't funded as a full-time position. I don't feel good about that. I've had a number of conversations with staff about trying to help make this a priority, and I just am trying to work with a number of stakeholders to try to advance some efforts to build a more inclusive workforce on some fronts, but this is not moving in a direction that, frankly, I feel comfortable about.

[Speaker 7] (2:09:00 - 2:09:57)
I just think that when the voices were the loudest, we all rallied behind it, and now that things have quieted down, it's, to your point, maybe not in the direction we necessarily wanna be going in. We should bring it back to the direction we wanna go in, and if we're building something internally, it is better to have somebody there during the building phase than to have somebody walk in when it's built and say, look what we built in the name of D, E, and I, just to have them come in and say, well, X, Y, and Z, and then it feels sometimes like a negative impact because you worked so hard to build something that maybe they have a different viewpoint on. So to have them in during the building stages might help make it in a different lens, more diverse, equitable, and inclusive from the beginning.

So just a suggestion.

[Speaker 2] (2:09:58 - 2:10:41)
Look, I will circle back around with my team and we'll have a conversation about where we think we should be and how we can advance some of these priorities. I do appreciate the board's support for these efforts. They're the most difficult responsibilities we have.

They are the most difficult conversations that we have to have. There's no easy way to deal with this, and we will face opposition. We will face folks that, frankly, do not believe that this should be a priority, and I'm sorry to say that this budget, frankly, reflects that.

[Speaker 4] (2:10:42 - 2:11:13)
I think that we still have, last year when this budget was presented, it was presented with the goal of using the ARPA monies to identify what our needs were and to give us a roadmap on what we need to do and which way to go forward, and I still think that that opportunity is there. I recommend use ARPA funds to get us a consultant to look at the town, look at what our needs are and which way we can go, and also work with our HR director who's making recommendations, and I think we can get to a good place.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:14 - 2:11:34)
I appreciate that, Mary Ellen. I do think we can find a way to make some forward progress on this. I do think I'm gonna have to come back with a revised budget and a plan for that, and I think it may include general fund dollars, but also some use of ARPA funds.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:36 - 2:13:05)
I'm on the same page with Mary Ellen as well. We've talked about this offline. I do not believe that we can internally self-define the solution.

So it's external. We need someone who has that existing proven track record of being able to analyze and do a SWOT analysis and be able to tell us exactly what we need to do because it's not just personnel. It's not just an HR person, which is why, in principle, I don't think this idea of just stipending an individual, we don't know what we don't know, right?

And so I support that as long as, and I know the answer from you is gonna be yes, is that you're gonna be as convicted as ever next year when we have the findings from that consultant, that consultant saying we need to do these six things, and that's gonna put some operating budget pressures. No doubt that your resolve, and I'm sure it is because you have been on the front of this. We are, in many respects, I am at least, you know, following you, just to make sure that that resolve is there because we're creating inherently a structural deficiency here.

By removing it, next year it's gonna show as a 5,000% increase, and so inevitably it'll be a first conversation at a FinCom meeting or a select board meeting, and that's never what you want because it does that, but I do think we need to not assume we know the answers and not assume that we can actually even craft the job description of the person. I think we've got to, we've gotta get sage counsel of someone with a proven track record, and I think Mary Ellen's right on that approach.

[Speaker 3] (2:13:06 - 2:13:36)
So yeah, so I don't think it, I mean, I don't think incrementalism is necessarily the wrong direction. It's just the right type of incrementalism, doing the incrementalism the right ways, and so I agree with all that because I don't want to put in a line item for a full-time position that doesn't get filled. All right, anything else on human resources?

[Speaker 4] (2:13:38 - 2:13:47)
Is, on human resources, because I'm working off an addition sheet, is performance management in human resources?

[Speaker 1] (2:13:52 - 2:13:54)
You're talking bonuses in there, Ellen? Yeah.

[Speaker 7] (2:13:54 - 2:13:57)
Employee recognition? Mm-hmm. Is that what that is?

[Speaker 4] (2:13:57 - 2:14:42)
30,000? Yes. I just want to continue to be on record that I don't support bonuses for the reason of, without having it really, really clear and having it super structured, I think bonuses get to be a little bit, I hate using the word willy-nilly because I think the moderator had a heart attack one day when I used it, but I think that if things are very, very clear on how everyone can earn something, I'm good with that, but I don't think that that's the case right now. I don't think that's been the case, and I think it causes problems, and that's why I'm never in support of this, but I always know I'm a minority on that, and I just want to keep it.

[Speaker 2] (2:14:42 - 2:15:29)
I will just say I think it helps us attract and retain some incredibly talented individuals, and I have seen it be used in ways that help ensure that employees understand that we appreciate when they go over and above and do extraordinary things. Every employee is going through their annual review right now. We get a chance to kind of sit down and share a conversation about their contributions and really make them feel as though they work for an organization that values those extraordinary acts of dedication and contribution.

[Speaker 7] (2:15:29 - 2:15:33)
So how do performance management and employee recognition, how are they different?

[Speaker 2] (2:15:34 - 2:15:50)
Employee recognition is years of service. It's making sure that we recognize their tenure or having special events for employees. Performance management is really recognizing that.

[Speaker 7] (2:15:50 - 2:15:53)
Like longevity and that kind of thing. Okay, got it, thank you.

[Speaker 9] (2:15:53 - 2:16:03)
So those are the luncheons, the breakfast, the ice cream socials. That's right. What about the end of employment costs, Sean?

[Speaker 2] (2:16:03 - 2:16:27)
These are contractual. These are every employee has a range of benefits, either if they're non-union, they have time, accrual time. But every collective bargaining contract that we have have enumerated sections for sick time and end of employment.

[Speaker 9] (2:16:29 - 2:16:36)
I mean, I'm just looking at a five-year average. I mean, we're looking at nearly $224,000 on a five-year average.

[Speaker 4] (2:16:38 - 2:16:39)
We just made that part of the tool, right?

[Speaker 2] (2:16:39 - 2:17:27)
We just added a reserve fund at our last special town meeting. What we're trying to do is just stabilize this and get it to a point where in the operating budget it's gonna be within a range that we can stabilize and that reserve fund hopefully can help us just ensure that we're not gonna see a spike from one year or another because we have a 35-year employee that's retiring or a few, sometimes I can, a retirement for a police officer or a firefighter with 30 years of employment from town could cost $30,000, $40,000, $50,000. It would be incredibly expensive.

Teachers are expensive as well.

[Speaker 4] (2:17:29 - 2:17:35)
Teachers put, when teachers are gonna retire, they put in that they're gonna retire, like there's a certain amount of time.

[Speaker 2] (2:17:35 - 2:17:36)
Police and fire do that as well.

[Speaker 4] (2:17:36 - 2:17:46)
Police and fire. So when a police officer is gonna retire, say, they're not obligated, but I think with a teacher, a teacher is obligated, right?

[Speaker 16] (2:17:46 - 2:17:47)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (2:17:47 - 2:17:54)
So there's a difference there. So teacher, because that goes into the school budget, doesn't it, when a school teacher says, I might retire, they raise their hand?

[Speaker 6] (2:17:54 - 2:17:57)
Mary Ellen, the school is the next line down.

[Speaker 4] (2:17:57 - 2:17:57)
Right.

[Speaker 6] (2:17:57 - 2:18:00)
So you'll see there's two end of employment lines for town and school.

[Speaker 4] (2:18:00 - 2:18:06)
Right, but the school also, in the past, the school had that in their budget.

[Speaker 6] (2:18:08 - 2:18:22)
Yeah, so the school will, even currently, they'll absorb it for anyone who just resigns and it's their regular accrual payout. This line is only for people who retire and have that big sick leave buyback. Right.

[Speaker 4] (2:18:24 - 2:18:33)
But they have to identify, the school has to identify in advance. So you have a little bit of warning in there, right? Whereas we don't necessarily have the warning.

[Speaker 6] (2:18:33 - 2:19:02)
Yes, the number that's in there is the one from the school. They give us the exact employee and their full calculation so that we know what to put in this budget. And for the town, we get the intent to retire notices from police, fire, DPW, and any other employee who indicates that they are considering retiring in the upcoming fiscal year.

[Speaker 4] (2:19:03 - 2:19:15)
Right, but they're not obligated to do that, correct? No. Right, so they could just, a police or a fireman could turn around tomorrow and say, I'm gonna retire next week.

And if they've been here a long time, we could, it could really hit the budget, correct?

[Speaker 6] (2:19:16 - 2:19:40)
Yeah, so if they don't indicate that they intend to retire in that year, we don't have to pay them their retirement payout in that year. Okay. So it is due to appropriation.

So more often we have more people raising their hand who don't end up retiring in that year versus someone retiring who didn't indicate it.

[Speaker 4] (2:19:40 - 2:19:58)
I just, I always question whether or not we should take money out of free cash and make a reserve. So for example, if you have police or fire or any type of contracting, and if they don't use their sick time, they're allowed to squirrel it away at what, 80%, 20%?

[Speaker 6] (2:19:59 - 2:20:07)
20% is the payout, and it's capped at, I believe, 225 or 250 days. Right, so I'm just, so I'm just wondering.

[Speaker 2] (2:20:08 - 2:20:21)
Ideally, it would be better to have a stabilization fund or a reserve fund for all of these... Possibilities. End of employment, you know, expenditures, because they spike the operating budget.

[Speaker 4] (2:20:21 - 2:20:21)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:20:22 - 2:20:46)
If you're building a stable budget that you wanna kinda keep on a steady track, you know, having stabilization funds for... End of year. Costs that you really, you know, don't have to budget year to year, or fluctuations like utilities or gas or other things that go up higher than your standard 2%.

[Speaker 4] (2:20:47 - 2:20:50)
Okay, I'm just gonna put that down there for the future.

[Speaker 2] (2:20:52 - 2:21:05)
But generally, we have insight into why, you know, who's gonna be retiring and, you know, from the town and school, and so we've budgeted those numbers. Isn't that the fund that we created last year, though, that was purposed for that, right?

[Speaker 4] (2:21:06 - 2:21:22)
Yeah, my question comes in, like, to really look and see how much money should we be putting that, adding to it each year. Gotcha. From the current budget.

I think it should come out of free cash for that given year, but that's another conversation for another day.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:23 - 2:21:46)
Okay. Technology. Town Clerk.

ComComm. Community Development. It's not budget-related, Sean, but while we're on Community Development, the Assistant Director, that's the planning position, right?

That is.

[Speaker 4] (2:21:47 - 2:21:49)
Oh, that's the planner?

[Speaker 3] (2:21:49 - 2:21:50)
That's the...

[Speaker 4] (2:21:51 - 2:21:54)
The Assistant Director of Community Development is the planner?

[Speaker 3] (2:21:55 - 2:21:58)
It was the Senior Planner. So it's the Senior Planner, right?

[Speaker 1] (2:21:59 - 2:21:59)
That's right.

[Speaker 4] (2:22:00 - 2:22:01)
Why don't we just call it Senior Planner?

[Speaker 1] (2:22:01 - 2:22:17)
Because we can't refer to Senior Planner. Well, we tried to hire a Senior Planner. We revised it because there's too many people out in the marketplace hiring Senior Planners.

So, can you give a... I know you said we're processing, we're doing, stuff like that, but it just feels like...

[Speaker 2] (2:22:17 - 2:22:27)
Last week, I had two interviews with candidates for the Assistant Director position, and I should have an update next week. Okay, thanks. Yeah, go ahead.

[Speaker 9] (2:22:27 - 2:23:22)
I mean, as far as Community Development's concerned, I'm still gonna beat the drum, and I think we should have someone who's a project manager slash real estate czar to help us shepherd these incredibly important, transformative projects that we have in town. I mean, we have so many of these things that are happening. We have Hadley Reuse, we have Hawthorne, you know, we're looking at Pine Street as well.

We're gonna have these big projects, and we're gonna need help. I hear you. Because just piling the workload on existing staff is, we just have the opportunity here to do something great.

And I think making that incremental investment today is gonna help us to really further these very you know, grand plans that we have.

[Speaker 2] (2:23:22 - 2:23:57)
They're not grand, they're critical. You absolutely need these business development initiatives. I've said too many times that we cannot simply cut our way out of problems.

That's what we've done over the last few years. Now we have to start growing our way out of the fiduciary challenges that we're facing. You don't need this budget to remind you of that.

There are too many challenges facing Swanscape. Too many great opportunities not to think that we can't advance those commercial.

[Speaker 9] (2:23:58 - 2:24:08)
Yeah, so I mean, as we're talking about growing and expanding the pie and reimagining and re-envisioning Benning Square, I think it's important to have someone that can tie that all together.

[Speaker 2] (2:24:08 - 2:24:09)
Agreed, agreed.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:12 - 2:24:17)
All right, Board of Appeals, Facilities.

[Speaker 4] (2:24:19 - 2:24:29)
I have a question on Facilities on, what is this, I just wanna know what the split was on that. What is, what the school?

[Speaker 2] (2:24:30 - 2:24:30)
64.

[Speaker 6] (2:24:30 - 2:24:48)
Yep, so the Director of Facilities and the Maintenance Salaries are 60% for the school, 40% for the town. The Custodians are 100% town and the Administrative Assistant is 50-50 town and school.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:48 - 2:24:50)
So are we cutting Custodians?

[Speaker 6] (2:24:51 - 2:25:20)
No, so the Custodians have always been 100% on the town. We used to have a part-time Custodian and a full-time and what they ended up doing was worked out an agreement with the current Custodian to do a split shift so that way it covers the needs at the beginning and end of the day where they needed it so they didn't need the part-time person anymore.

[Speaker 3] (2:25:20 - 2:25:25)
So that's the reduction? Mm-hmm. And then the Maintenance Salaries?

[Speaker 6] (2:25:26 - 2:25:46)
Yeah, so there were, Max originally was aiming for three and he had been, you may remember, he had been struggling finding someone with the right criteria for that for the last couple of years. So now he's going to contract that out and it's actually gonna be a cost savings to the town.

[Speaker 3] (2:25:46 - 2:25:58)
Okay, got it, thanks. Anything else on Facilities? Historical Commission, Police.

[Speaker 4] (2:26:00 - 2:26:27)
So I do have questions on this budget. If you go to Line Item under Patrolman, it just seems like these are decreasing meanwhile we've got Patrolman coming in so that's a little confusing there. The Overtime continues to be a question if you look historically what the Overtime is, has been, and where it's marked at.

Okay.

[Speaker 2] (2:26:30 - 2:26:40)
So we cost out these numbers maybe, Amy, can you go over the? Yeah, how are they costed out? We take the salaries and we run them out, it's two weeks.

[Speaker 6] (2:26:40 - 2:27:16)
So the Patrol is a combination of two things. It's a combination of we've had a couple of retirements so we have fewer people who cost less money. We also have the positions that we're hiring for.

So it includes partial year vacancies until they're able to enter into the Academy which was discussed with the Chief and Captain when we were going through the budget. But it is a budget that does include fully staffed Police Department. It just takes into account the timing difference of when the position will be vacant during the year.

[Speaker 3] (2:27:24 - 2:27:51)
Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, right. It's really trivial but I was watching the Finance Committee and this came up, the Matrons line item.

So that's for like a booking, like an admin booking person on call? I know that's sort of an antiquated, like is there a reason we have to continue to call that Matrons? Because I think nobody knows what that is and it'd be helpful.

[Speaker 1] (2:27:51 - 2:27:54)
I think they're functionally jail attendants, right?

[Speaker 2] (2:27:54 - 2:27:55)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (2:27:55 - 2:27:58)
So can we just name it going forward?

[Speaker 2] (2:27:59 - 2:27:59)
Not a problem.

[Speaker 1] (2:27:59 - 2:28:05)
That'd be awesome. Yeah, I just think so people know what it is rather than. Thank you for bringing that up.

Thank you, Master Duffy for telling us.

[Speaker 3] (2:28:05 - 2:28:12)
Yeah, no problem. I couldn't come up with a witty rhetoric but I appreciate it. All right.

[Speaker 4] (2:28:12 - 2:28:20)
And then, so how are we dealing with the overtime issue? Because if you look, you know, we've got.

[Speaker 2] (2:28:20 - 2:28:29)
Amy, just explain, you know, we go through reconciliation of who's gonna. She just, that was patrolling.

[Speaker 1] (2:28:29 - 2:28:31)
Okay. I don't think Amy's actually talked, given us her.

[Speaker 6] (2:28:32 - 2:28:52)
No, so for the overtime, I sat with the chief and captain and we went through ensuring that all the collective overtime lines were sufficient to cover everyone's paid time off, assuming that they're taking it and as well as, you know, mandatory trainings and all of those.

[Speaker 16] (2:28:53 - 2:28:53)
Okay.

[Speaker 6] (2:28:54 - 2:29:09)
Barring any, you know, anything coming up that was not anticipated, they both felt confident that this overtime budget was sufficient for the year with the staff they're going to have. All right, good. Good to hear.

All right. Sorry, Mary Ellen.

[Speaker 2] (2:29:09 - 2:29:27)
I knew that we had gone through that exercise to actually program out all the employees and look at that over a 52 week period and just anticipate vacation schedules, anticipate census changes based on retirements and we do feel comfortable that we have the right numbers.

[Speaker 6] (2:29:28 - 2:29:34)
Chief Cassata will be joining the finance committee on Monday as well to answer more questions about the budget.

[Speaker 9] (2:29:37 - 2:29:41)
Just a question about police. Do we have an update as to the deputy chief position?

[Speaker 2] (2:29:47 - 2:29:47)
I. Right there.

[Speaker 9] (2:29:48 - 2:29:48)
Yep.

[Speaker 2] (2:29:49 - 2:29:49)
It's.

[Speaker 16] (2:29:49 - 2:29:49)
110.

[Speaker 2] (2:29:50 - 2:29:51)
Yeah. It's in the budget.

[Speaker 16] (2:29:52 - 2:29:52)
It's in the budget.

[Speaker 2] (2:29:52 - 2:30:09)
And that is an ongoing conversation. I have a commitment from the chief that he will be moving forward with that position and we've budgeted for it. We have a job description and we're just going through.

So.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:09 - 2:30:34)
Can I just ask a follow up to that, which is this position is great, awesome, but this isn't an additive position. It is not an additive position. So these numbers, the other line items, reflect a corresponding decrease because there's gonna be a deputy chief.

So presumably a lieutenant or a sergeant position or a patrolman position. Something's not, we're not adding heads, we're just changing titles.

[Speaker 4] (2:30:34 - 2:30:39)
Well, was there a deputy chief in 17, 18, and 19?

[Speaker 2] (2:30:39 - 2:30:41)
No, no. We've only had a captain that's been.

[Speaker 4] (2:30:42 - 2:30:44)
Okay, because it just says deputy chief.

[Speaker 2] (2:30:44 - 2:30:49)
We negotiated the. No, but the addition of a deputy chief is a non-union.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:49 - 2:30:59)
I know, she's just pointing out the budget says that in 17, 18, 19, and 20, there is some $91,000. And my guess is that's a mistake. Okay.

[Speaker 7] (2:31:00 - 2:31:01)
94,000, 98,000.

[Speaker 1] (2:31:01 - 2:31:04)
Did we lose? Amy's still here, right? Still there, Amy?

[Speaker 7] (2:31:04 - 2:31:05)
Yep, I'm here, sorry.

[Speaker 1] (2:31:05 - 2:31:07)
That's all right. I'm guessing that's a mistake.

[Speaker 4] (2:31:08 - 2:31:12)
Right, so we're, what is that mistake, Amy?

[Speaker 1] (2:31:12 - 2:31:18)
Amy, we're looking at 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, where the deputy chief line shows that we funded money for that, but that position didn't exist. It's just the line below.

[Speaker 3] (2:31:19 - 2:31:20)
It's the captain's salary.

[Speaker 6] (2:31:20 - 2:31:22)
It's the duplicate of the captain.

[Speaker 1] (2:31:22 - 2:31:23)
Yeah, it looks like it's a duplicate of the captain.

[Speaker 6] (2:31:24 - 2:31:28)
Oh, yeah, it was probably just when the line was copied. This was a brand new line, apologies.

[Speaker 3] (2:31:33 - 2:31:46)
Any other police questions? Going to the next page, some police. Fire.

[Speaker 4] (2:31:49 - 2:31:56)
Now, on fire, when you did the overtime, you did the same, I would think you did the same exercise looking at the census in the department.

[Speaker 6] (2:31:56 - 2:32:20)
Yes, yeah, so as an overall, we take the FLSA spreadsheet, which encompasses all of the different payments that factor in for each of the employees. And we make sure that it's fully funded for the entire department. As well as taking into account anyone that is going to be stepping up during that year.

[Speaker 4] (2:32:21 - 2:32:30)
I would just think that their overtime, so their overtime line item is the same as what it was last year.

[Speaker 6] (2:32:31 - 2:32:44)
Yeah, so for fiscal 23, if we didn't actually have those long-term sick outs, then the fire department was actually budgeted 50,000 over what they actually had. And that was actually needed for FY 23.

[Speaker 4] (2:32:45 - 2:33:05)
Right, that's why I'm thinking, that's why I'm a little surprised that the overtime line item isn't lower for 2024. Because I think those sick times, those sick, the long-term sick time is being resolved.

[Speaker 6] (2:33:06 - 2:33:17)
Yeah, we estimated that one person who's currently still out will still potentially be out at the beginning of fiscal 24. So we factored that into the equation.

[Speaker 3] (2:33:19 - 2:33:41)
All right, and then Amy, on the next page, it's, sorry, on protective clothing. I'm assuming we're giving them everything they need for protective clothing, is that it?

[Speaker 6] (2:33:41 - 2:33:57)
Yeah, so the chief has a list in the firehouse of what clothing needs to be replaced on what cycles, as well as making sure that new hires have the whole gamut of what they need.

[Speaker 3] (2:33:58 - 2:34:23)
Okay. Building department, constable, emergency management, parking clerk, harbormaster. Cemetery.

DPW.

[Speaker 4] (2:34:25 - 2:34:36)
Yeah, so I'd like to comment on DPW. You look at every single line and everybody's going up, and DPW is .02 on the personnel.

[Speaker 6] (2:34:39 - 2:35:16)
And their total budget is negative 1.64. Yep, so on the personnel specifically, and you'll see it in cemetery, DPW, water, and sewer, we had five or six retirement, well, we had five or six DPW employees who either retired or left in this fiscal year. So we have five or six brand new employees who came in, obviously, at the first step in the contract. So we still have the same 16 members.

They're just costing us less this year.

[Speaker 3] (2:35:18 - 2:35:19)
So it's temporary relief.

[Speaker 2] (2:35:20 - 2:35:23)
It's high out, low in. Yeah, so they'll graduate up.

[Speaker 1] (2:35:23 - 2:36:15)
The other question, which I thought was, Amy, I give you credit. You actually answered this question at FinCom a few weeks ago when someone said, how is it that contract sidewalk repairs is going down? And you said, I believe Gino thinks that we fixed all the sidewalks.

I actually believe that was your mind. And I think that was awesome, but I think it's totally wrong. So I just say that to the town administrator that I think is though, and by the way, I give you credit.

You do these meetings so well. So I'm just having fun with you. But that line item, Gino does wonder spreading his budget and being able to make impacts there.

But the truth is our sidewalks are, I agree. Continue to be in need. So I just advocate for that.

Make sure Gino has, those can be one-time funds, obviously, because it's different. So whatever the vehicle is, make sure he has enough to be able to start, keep doing what he's committed to doing.

[Speaker 4] (2:36:16 - 2:37:02)
So the concern that I have here is Gino Cresta is a super team player and he does stretch out everything and he does everything possible for this town. And one more I have is that he's always being such a team player and not really being vocal about needs. And I've never had a conversation with Gino Cresta about this, but I see the amount of work that these guys are doing all the time and I see the differences in our community.

It's a direct, it's just right in front of you. It's a direct line of sight of the improvements in our town. And when I see this budget, it does make me worry.

But if Gino's on board.

[Speaker 2] (2:37:03 - 2:38:27)
Look, I met with Gino today. We talked about the priorities of needs. Frankly, the most important thing for Gino is getting a new DPW facility for the individuals that work for him.

He has a substandard facility and that's the biggest issue that we have to address in terms of town properties. When we look at the budget, yes, we did make some reductions to try to make some of these numbers work. This is not an ideal budget, but we're trying to balance a lot of the financial responsibilities that we have.

Gino and the DPW do extraordinary work. And they're very efficient. I'm amazed at times how quickly they're able to address a broken pipe or some of the infrastructure work that we have in town.

But certainly, you know, a challenge. We do have a lot of capital projects as well for DPW. We have Chapter 90 paving.

We have a lot of other funds that are not in the operating budget that are coordinated annually by the DPW that help reflect their overall scope of work.

[Speaker 7] (2:38:29 - 2:39:36)
Yeah, I think that a couple things about the DPW section that caused me pause was that we were reducing equipment maintenance and I kind of felt like, are we robbing Peter to pay Paul there? Because I'm sure they use a lot of very important equipment and if something failed, it would be more expensive to replace than it would be to maintain. And then also with the sidewalks, that's a large reduction.

And if you walk the sidewalks as often as most of us do, you happen to walk them with a stroller, you'll know how they aren't all fixed. And some of that can't be helped by, you know, he's doing an amazing job. Those tree roots will hurt us all.

But I just worry, considering we're building a new school, I'd like to see all the sidewalks going towards that new school in great condition so that we're encouraging kids to ride bikes, ride scooters, walk to school, less cars on the road, less cars that pick up and drop off, that building that community. So just making sure that we can still do all those plans.

[Speaker 2] (2:39:37 - 2:40:09)
Plan that has a significant project in there for pedestrian safety and sidewalk improvements. So we're trying to address some of those capital needs and pedestrian safety through the capital budget as well as an operating budget. Little in the operating budget to stabilize it.

Surge in the capital plan to, you know, really address some of those critical pedestrian safety and safe routes to school priorities that the board has been really vocal about.

[Speaker 6] (2:40:09 - 2:40:29)
And Katie, on your first point with the equipment maintenance, we've really been prioritizing the equipment replacement for public works in the capital plan. So it's not that there isn't equipment that needs to be maintained, it's just that we have a lot of newer equipment. So the maintenance for it is not as dire.

[Speaker 7] (2:40:30 - 2:40:31)
Very good.

[Speaker 2] (2:40:31 - 2:41:28)
I just want to highlight too, it's hard to see operationally, but when we had to go through this budget and make a series of reductions to try to make these numbers work. I sat with a number of department heads and said, look, you know, there may be ways that we can help reduce the expenses next year by addressing some of the costs this year and trying to find ways to ensure that we maintain the equipment at a level that is better than what we ordinarily would with this fiscal year so we can make additional reductions next fiscal year because we're trying to balance a lot of the other fiduciary responsibilities that we have.

Some of these lines, it's not that we just aren't going to meet that level of service, it's just we're probably looking more creatively at trying to find a way to address some of those needs.

[Speaker 7] (2:41:29 - 2:41:45)
I have one more question. The street lighting, is that the installation of new street lights, the maintenance? That's essentially the electric bill for the street lights.

That's the electric bill, okay. And that includes the lights on town hall for the holiday?

[Speaker 2] (2:41:48 - 2:41:50)
That's covered in the town hall electric bill. Yeah, that's town hall.

[Speaker 7] (2:41:51 - 2:41:52)
Oh, you all pay for that.

[Speaker 2] (2:41:53 - 2:41:53)
Facilities.

[Speaker 7] (2:41:56 - 2:42:01)
So when there's events on town hall lawn, that goes through the town hall's electric bill? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 3] (2:42:05 - 2:42:22)
Good to know. All right, snow and ice. More to help?

And we have solid waste.

[Speaker 16] (2:42:22 - 2:42:23)
What?

[Speaker 3] (2:42:23 - 2:42:39)
What? Senior center. Veteran services.

Can you just, Amy, the veteran services, it looks like finance is recommending an increase in that.

[Speaker 2] (2:42:40 - 2:42:41)
Do you have any?

[Speaker 6] (2:42:41 - 2:42:43)
That was at the town administrator's recommendation.

[Speaker 2] (2:42:44 - 2:43:14)
Yeah, so in a recent meeting I had with the city of Lynn, you know, we've been sharing some additional services. We're, I think, getting additional support from our veterans agent. We have more meetings, more monthly and weekly meetings.

And so the thought was that we will share some additional staff funding.

[Speaker 9] (2:43:15 - 2:43:18)
Okay, so this is sharing the support staff. Yes, yeah, got it.

[Speaker 4] (2:43:18 - 2:43:23)
Have we ever thought about just having our own veterans agent for the town, for Swampscott, versus sharing?

[Speaker 2] (2:43:24 - 2:44:03)
Yeah, we've had those conversations. And, you know, I think we're stronger regionally. I think, you know, when we think about, you know, all of the various opportunities for us to be that much more effective regionally for veterans, it makes sense for us to work with Lynn and, you know, have the support of that city.

You know, that city is eligible to get a lot of other grants and other initiatives. And I think we're well-served and supported by, you know, our shared veterans agent.

[Speaker 4] (2:44:04 - 2:44:13)
And what, do you have conversations with our, like the VFW commander and people like that? I do, in fact.

[Speaker 2] (2:44:13 - 2:45:42)
This is the conversation. This past Friday, I had breakfast with, you know, three of the commanders for the, three of the organizations that are in Veterans Crossing, including the VFW. And I start, we run monthly meetings for the Veterans Crossing group out of the town administrator's office.

Diane Marchese has been staffing that committee, and they've been helpful in terms of, you know, ensuring that we're all just working together towards common ends. I do think that we're in a better place today than we were a year ago. And I think a lot of that has to do with some of the leadership that both VFW, the disabled veterans organizations that Jeff Blonder and General Andrea Bennett have been supporting.

But certainly, you know, lots to do. And, you know, but I do think, you know, we're at a time where things are markedly better. And making more investments in veterans, I think, makes a lot of sense.

And, you know, I think that that increase reflects, you know, some of that progress. Library.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:43 - 2:46:02)
Under the library CDA, what is other compensation? That is part of their collective bargaining. So this is different stipends that they can receive based off their collective bargaining.

[Speaker 7] (2:46:04 - 2:46:14)
So I'll just, because it's reduced, but I don't think it's, it's not a staffing level change. So it's not appearing in any other line item, correct?

[Speaker 6] (2:46:15 - 2:46:28)
Correct, yeah, so it's the same number of staffing. Yeah, it's only reduced because of the census change. The actual turnover of the staff, but it's still the same number of people in the library.

[Speaker 9] (2:46:29 - 2:47:07)
And I'm gonna look at the community programs line here as well. That's being cut. The new library director has done incredible things.

He needs more funding to do more incredible things. He needs more outreach, communication, and collaboration. So, you know, I would love to have the community program line for the library raised rather than cut, because I think magical things are happening, and I wanna encourage that and enable that and spend those small dollars which represent our values as a town.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:08 - 2:47:11)
David, I appreciate that. I'll take that back.

[Speaker 7] (2:47:11 - 2:47:38)
I do not agree with David more. I have not seen a larger age range of individuals at the library because of some of these events, I think. All the holding events for all ages, encouraging groups who don't normally roll up to the library frequently to come in and to be engaging.

It's awesome, and we should be giving him all the money.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:39 - 2:48:13)
I appreciate that. It was just a few years ago, a former member of this board asked me to go back and encourage that we add $10,000 to a community program line, and it was this board that actually initially seeded that. Happy to go back and think about ways that we can encourage that type of community program.

I agree with you that, fortunate we have a library director that really is ever thinking about ways to get the library out of the library, so to speak, and really help create.

[Speaker 7] (2:48:15 - 2:48:18)
Do we know how much of his current budget is used for that line?

[Speaker 6] (2:48:19 - 2:49:07)
Is that? How much of his current? I can give that to you in one second.

As of this moment, out of the $10,000 budget that they had this year, they transferred $1,700 of it to a different line, and they've used $2,500 of the budget, so they have $5,700 remaining. I do wanna note that the reduction to community programming was one that the director himself put in, and not one that we sliced and diced while we were balancing the budget. That's good to know.

So I know he does have a plan for that, though I'm sure he would very much welcome more funding.

[Speaker 4] (2:49:08 - 2:49:12)
Do the Friends, no, what is the, is that Friends of the Library?

[Speaker 6] (2:49:12 - 2:49:13)
It is the Friends.

[Speaker 4] (2:49:13 - 2:49:19)
Friends of the Library, yeah. And so, the Friends of the Library, do they do fundraisers and things like that? Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 7] (2:49:20 - 2:49:22)
We do a flower sale. Whoa. To buy a boat.

[Speaker 4] (2:49:24 - 2:49:24)
I don't know if that.

[Speaker 7] (2:49:25 - 2:49:27)
I don't know. I just remember I bought boats.

[Speaker 4] (2:49:27 - 2:49:29)
We gotta get the communication committee together.

[Speaker 6] (2:49:29 - 2:49:44)
Who knows? I don't know what the director is. I know the director met with the Friends, I believe last week, to talk with them about a number of things.

So I can, the town administrator can get an update from him to give to the board. Okay, great.

[Speaker 3] (2:49:48 - 2:49:49)
Okay, recreation.

[Speaker 9] (2:49:50 - 2:49:52)
Beach sticker processing.

[Speaker 6] (2:49:53 - 2:49:54)
And stuff.

[Speaker 9] (2:49:55 - 2:50:07)
Yeah, well, no, no, no. I just wanna talk about the beach sticker processing. So how much are we exactly paying?

How much does it cost to do this, to pay a company to do it, and why haven't we done this in-house?

[Speaker 2] (2:50:08 - 2:50:13)
You know, David, I asked that question two weeks ago. And.

[Speaker 3] (2:50:17 - 2:50:18)
Didn't get an answer?

[Speaker 2] (2:50:18 - 2:50:21)
No, I did. I actually, I, you know.

[Speaker 6] (2:50:22 - 2:50:38)
Sean, I have the whole email from the recreation director, if you want me to just give her. Because she gave a very thorough email on that, so. Let me just, I was just looking at it earlier, too.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:38 - 2:50:49)
I was looking to kind of bring that in-house. I was like, look, it can't be that much to buy stickers. And so part of it is processing.

It's 2,000 envelopes.

[Speaker 9] (2:50:49 - 2:50:55)
I mean, like, it's a lot of staff time, too. Right. No, I'm just, I'm just more curious.

[Speaker 16] (2:50:55 - 2:50:57)
You wanna know what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 6] (2:50:57 - 2:52:28)
Yeah, so the bulk of the, the bulk of that is the processing through City Hall systems. So we pay $3.50. We originally were paying $3.50 per sticker for processing. And now we're up to $4.50, as well as they are now passing along the credit card fee to the purchaser. So it's actually going to be even more for people who are purchasing it through City Hall systems. We have talked about trying to bring this, at least give an option to bring this in-house so that you can get them at resident services. Because the printing cost for the stickers is actually very small.

So bringing them in-house would actually, she estimates that for the number of people who pay by check, if all of those people came and bought them at resident services, as well as if a portion of the credit card customers came in with cash or checks to pay at resident services, we'd save about $2,500. And that's on the most conservative estimate. So hopefully we can do some of that this year to reduce the cost.

But since it isn't already in place, we didn't wanna not budget enough for that line.

[Speaker 3] (2:52:30 - 2:52:31)
Got it.

[Speaker 7] (2:52:31 - 2:52:44)
I think it's just from personal experience. The fact that you have to order it online, you pay the fees, and then you get it mailed to you. Like if I could just go down to Town Hall and do it, that would be much more convenient.

And if it's gonna cost us less, then it's a double win.

[Speaker 9] (2:52:44 - 2:52:50)
If we could take that money and invest it in additional community programs, stand-up paddle boards, what have you.

[Speaker 2] (2:52:53 - 2:53:14)
I'm still keen on trying to see if there's some efficiencies there. We were looking at it just a couple weeks ago. I have kind of pressed a number of these lines.

But certainly I'll follow up with Amy and Danielle. I do think, look, it's a convenient way for residents to get a beach sticker.

[Speaker 6] (2:53:14 - 2:53:15)
But how much do they cost?

[Speaker 2] (2:53:17 - 2:53:19)
I think they're 20, 20 or 25.

[Speaker 6] (2:53:21 - 2:54:02)
They, last year they were 24, a regular beach sticker, $7 for the seniors. But I know that we are putting together a list of fees for the board, and that's one of the ones that we're proposing increasing. Okay.

How many do you sell a year? That is in the same email. So it looks like last year we sold 2,733, 676 of which were the senior classes.

[Speaker 7] (2:54:02 - 2:54:09)
So if you're not a senior and you can't afford a beach sticker, how do you obtain one, Sean? Ride a bike. Did you say ride a bike?

[Speaker 2] (2:54:09 - 2:54:15)
I haven't had a senior reach out to me and express that they couldn't afford a beach sticker.

[Speaker 7] (2:54:15 - 2:54:21)
No, if you're not a senior and you can't afford a beach sticker. How do you obtain one?

[Speaker 2] (2:54:21 - 2:54:24)
I haven't had that issue presented to me.

[Speaker 7] (2:54:24 - 2:54:38)
Just because you haven't had it presented to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So there has to be a way that people know if they can't afford a beach sticker but still want to go to the beach with their kids and drive to the beach, that they can still do that.

[Speaker 4] (2:54:38 - 2:54:41)
Well, we don't have a process yet to put one in place.

[Speaker 7] (2:54:41 - 2:54:54)
Well, we've been talking about making sure that it's communicated that if somebody has any issue with any rec program and whatever, they go to town hall and there has to be some sort of communication in place.

[Speaker 2] (2:54:54 - 2:55:18)
Let me follow up with Danielle. We'll talk, I'll ask her about, you know, I do, I have had several conversations with her about families that may need financial assistance and helping those families with recreational programs. But let me get some information from her about what type of programs that we have for those issues.

[Speaker 4] (2:55:19 - 2:55:21)
I think the schools can help out with that too.

[Speaker 6] (2:55:22 - 2:55:56)
Well, I know for recreation programs, there is a scholarship form that people can fill out. I know there's certain activities that are exempt from it, such as like the ski program, but for the regular recreation programs, there's a form because I have to certify those amounts every year. And people just, it's an application, they submit a couple financial backups and submit it to the office and it gets approved for a scholarship and we build that into the program cost as like a buffer.

[Speaker 4] (2:55:56 - 2:56:00)
I think the big question is making sure people know that that opportunity is out there.

[Speaker 7] (2:56:00 - 2:56:10)
Mm-hmm. Amy, maybe we could get that form to the school principals so that they could give that to their adjustment counselors so that we can be getting it into the hands of folks who might need it.

[Speaker 6] (2:56:11 - 2:56:18)
Yeah, it's on, I'll talk to Danielle about that. I know it's on the MyRec program that you can just access it straight on there. So when you're looking at the programs.

[Speaker 9] (2:56:21 - 2:56:38)
And then Sean, just again, community events, $7,000. I know there are increasing numbers of events that are gonna be happening. Is the $7,000 number sufficient?

Did the rec director recommend that $7,000 number or was she looking for additional funds and this was level funded?

[Speaker 2] (2:56:39 - 2:56:44)
Yeah, Amy, to my knowledge, I think you.

[Speaker 6] (2:56:44 - 2:56:48)
She didn't make any comment on this line when we were working on the budget.

[Speaker 2] (2:56:49 - 2:57:34)
You've also gotta keep in mind, we've got rec revolving accounts that really concede some of the programs that folks are paying a nominal fee for. So there are a couple of other ways that we can fund recreational initiatives, but I hear you. Yeah, I mean, I just.

I do think that we budget a very low amount of funds if comparatively, if I look around to similar communities like Swampskip, you'll see that we have a very anemic level of funding in recreation. So this is something that I think we've gotta look at over some time. We've balanced that with our revolving fund, but certainly.

[Speaker 9] (2:57:35 - 2:58:07)
I mean, if we're looking to do a street festival, I'm just gonna tell you right now, $7,000 would be sufficient to do that one event. That's right. So that's gonna put pressure on those revolving funds or additional sources of community event line items within the select board or elsewhere.

So I just wanna make sure that if we're gonna have these events and we're gonna do this, that we're funding them and we're supporting them and making sure that they're as successful as they possibly be. Sure.

[Speaker 4] (2:58:07 - 2:58:44)
You know, speaking of the revolving account, I'd like to get more information on the revolving account. And so you know what? I'll just email and get that information because none of that information is presented here.

Like the breakdown on the programs and- Yeah, the revolving funds isn't a voted budget, so we don't present it as part of the warrant. I think we're obligated at town meeting to present the dollar amount or the amounts that, I know there's something about the revolving account that we are obligated to present.

[Speaker 6] (2:58:45 - 2:58:58)
Yeah, so and we are supposed to vote in the warrant article any changes to the spending threshold. So last year we voted that, but the budget itself did not get voted.

[Speaker 4] (2:58:59 - 2:59:21)
Right, I would like to see what the budget is though. I'd like to see how much we charge for programs, what kind of money we make on programs, how much money is sitting in the program. I mean, I did have a serious issue when I asked how much money was in the account and I was told 144 and then a few weeks later, I was told 288.

So I really like to get a little bit more transparency on that account.

[Speaker 6] (2:59:23 - 2:59:29)
Yeah, you will get a different number every time you ask that question because it will fluctuate daily.

[Speaker 4] (2:59:29 - 2:59:40)
Not within four weeks. So when that number came up like that, I was very uncomfortable with it and I do wanna see, I wanna see these numbers and I just wanna get some real transparency.

[Speaker 2] (2:59:40 - 2:59:41)
We can get you our balance.

[Speaker 4] (2:59:41 - 2:59:43)
Thank you, Sean. Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:44 - 2:59:51)
All right, debt service. Employee benefits.

[Speaker 4] (2:59:52 - 2:59:55)
On debt service, we're gonna go over that with Patrick, right, and we're looking at capital?

[Speaker 3] (2:59:55 - 3:00:26)
For the capital? That was an idea. Employee benefits, regional, vocational, technical.

Schools. State assessments. Sewer enterprise.

Water enterprise.

[Speaker 1] (3:00:26 - 3:00:43)
So Sean, is it a reasonable extrapolation to take these, the bottom line of each of these enterprise budgets and have it be reflective of what we're looking at for an annual increase in water and sewer rates for this fiscal year?

[Speaker 2] (3:00:43 - 3:00:54)
It is. Patrick has already been running some of those numbers. He shared some information with me earlier today and we're just going through model.

[Speaker 1] (3:00:54 - 3:01:29)
I understand there's a lot of processing so I don't wanna put anybody in the spot but the sewer enterprise shows a cumulative reduction of $108,000. So minus 3.45% in the water. Enterprise fund shows a cumulative reduction of 58,000 which is 1.29% in years. So I'm just, just wanted to make sure we're not committing in July looking at five, six, nine, 12% increases on water and sewer enterprise. That's all I, good.

[Speaker 2] (3:01:29 - 3:01:50)
All right, that's it. Thank you. We're looking at it.

Appreciate that. You know, we're looking at it with the sense that we may be able to recommend use of retained earnings for the annual town meeting to help, you know, offset, to reduce. Reduce.

[Speaker 4] (3:01:50 - 3:01:52)
Reduce it? We have a policy for that, right?

[Speaker 2] (3:01:53 - 3:01:53)
We.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:54 - 3:01:56)
Well, you mean like a floor?

[Speaker 7] (3:01:56 - 3:01:57)
A percentage number on it? Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:57 - 3:01:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we have a percentage.

[Speaker 7] (3:02:00 - 3:02:01)
What was it, Patrick?

[Speaker 3] (3:02:09 - 3:02:16)
All right, PEG and solid waste enterprise funds.

[Speaker 4] (3:02:17 - 3:02:26)
I have a question on the solid waste. So on the contract, that's the forecast out on what the cost of contract is going to be?

[Speaker 6] (3:02:27 - 3:02:32)
Yes, that's based off the rates and current tonnage trending.

[Speaker 4] (3:02:33 - 3:02:38)
Is that, are we in a three-year contract or are we in a annual contract or?

[Speaker 2] (3:02:38 - 3:02:39)
It was a five, yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:02:39 - 3:02:56)
It's a five-year contract. And then, and we spend 5,000 on composting? Yes.

We should spend more. Is that, and that's not even since Diana's gotten involved.

[Speaker 3] (3:02:58 - 3:03:01)
That's for the composting at the.

[Speaker 4] (3:03:01 - 3:03:02)
The barrels, right?

[Speaker 3] (3:03:02 - 3:03:05)
At the dog park and the. Police station. Police station.

[Speaker 4] (3:03:10 - 3:03:13)
We don't have composting, we don't have a composting up at the schools?

[Speaker 9] (3:03:14 - 3:03:15)
They do, they now.

[Speaker 6] (3:03:15 - 3:03:16)
We do have composting at the school.

[Speaker 9] (3:03:17 - 3:03:19)
That's different. We need composting at the senior center.

[Speaker 1] (3:03:22 - 3:03:26)
At least until we get the kitchen because no one wants to eat the food. So they just throw it away.

[Speaker 2] (3:03:26 - 3:03:30)
Well, my guess is you're going to have composting at all town properties.

[Speaker 3] (3:03:33 - 3:03:37)
All right, I think we just, I think we're done.

[Speaker 1] (3:03:38 - 3:03:57)
So I just want to encourage, I think many of you have, but even in recorded form listening to FinCom, they do get very granular and it really is a, I've benefited just by listening. DPW and fire was this week. Next week is police and I'm forgetting who, police and.

[Speaker 6] (3:03:58 - 3:04:00)
And the town administrator will be there on Monday.

[Speaker 1] (3:04:00 - 3:04:02)
Town administrator, how could I forget him? Special guest.

[Speaker 6] (3:04:02 - 3:04:06)
And it is also a joint meeting with CIC to discuss capital.

[Speaker 3] (3:04:09 - 3:04:10)
Speaking of which, good segue.

[Speaker 4] (3:04:11 - 3:04:13)
So should we wait until next week to talk about capital?

[Speaker 3] (3:04:13 - 3:05:02)
I would love to. So let's, before we talk about anything else, we can talk about next week. So we have basically next week and the week after, right?

For everything before we have to close the warrant. So I'm open to ideas and suggestions, nine, 10. I think that I'll do, I would like to try to do an executive session next week to try to take care of the major backlog of executive session minutes.

I do want to try to do that. So if we had a regular meeting, it would be just to do more of this. And so we can work through CIC tonight and maybe feel like we don't need a regular meeting next week.

[Speaker 2] (3:05:02 - 3:05:07)
CIC has 80 projects that we're gonna step through. It's like a minute of age.

[Speaker 4] (3:05:07 - 3:05:08)
I do not want to touch CIC tonight.

[Speaker 7] (3:05:08 - 3:05:15)
I feel like it would probably be really beneficial to have FinCom go through it first. Yep.

[Speaker 1] (3:05:15 - 3:05:15)
Okay.

[Speaker 16] (3:05:15 - 3:05:17)
Listen to FinCom and listen to CIC.

[Speaker 1] (3:05:18 - 3:05:53)
Yeah, again, I'd listen to those meetings, but I don't know that it negates the reason to meet next week because we haven't, we're gonna, we voted to open a warrant tonight, but. We haven't even talked about it. We haven't even talked about the warrant.

Sure. And between, you know, just off the top of my head, right? I know the planning board has the ADU.

I think the planning board is looking at 3A zoning. I think there's another planning board change as well that I just can't remember at the moment. We have potential Hadley.

We have potential Hawthorne. I mean, this is, there's a whole bunch of warrant articles that we haven't even, they're not even drafted, and I'm not being critical, like things are moving.

[Speaker 3] (3:05:56 - 3:06:17)
So meeting next week, Wednesday the 12th, and then a meeting the following Wednesday the 19th. I think, Peter, you're unavailable probably on the 19th. Yeah, I may be able to join virtually.

Okay. And the 19th would be the day that we'd likely close the warrant. The last day that we can is the 24th, which is the Monday before the election.

[Speaker 1] (3:06:18 - 3:06:22)
Yeah, so let's just be honest with ourselves, though, that the 19th, you know.

[Speaker 3] (3:06:23 - 3:06:27)
Well, if it's not the 19th, then it's the 20th.

[Speaker 1] (3:06:27 - 3:07:24)
No, I'm just, I'm gonna share my past experience to let you know that I don't think we've ever closed the warrant early. Right. More than 24 hours before, we need to go to print, and that's just a byproduct of the fact that there's so many moving parts and so many eyes reviewing language, including town council, including staff, including us.

I'm just saying it's. So we might have to meet on the 24th. It'd be wonderful if it was more methodical and patient, but it's not proven out ever to be that way, and there's just enough moving parts right now that I just, this feels like it's a town meeting that's going to be two nights with, if the moderator's here, I'm guessing he would guess a third night, just because it feels like there's enough stuff gonna happen.

With the zoning articles alone, just bring about significant conversation, and we potentially are throwing a Hadley article on there as well, and I should have an update next week for you all on the Hadley as well. So that's just, anyways, I'm just giving my two cents. I hope to be wrong.

[Speaker 4] (3:07:25 - 3:07:30)
Yeah, I'd like that Hadley update a little sooner rather than later, any kind of conversation.

[Speaker 1] (3:07:30 - 3:07:54)
I'm gonna give you a Hadley update next Wednesday. The 12th. Yeah, I'm just waiting for the dates.

We're gonna get the marketability study is coming back. I just don't have the exact date, and then the feasibility, which we've talked. The marketability's coming back, and I'm hoping that I can try and get it for next week.

I just don't know yet, so I can't commit to that. I've asked them to give me a date.

[Speaker 3] (3:07:56 - 3:08:05)
So, okay, so it sounds like everyone's feeling like let's stop tonight, do the warrant for the town election. Sorry, Patrick.

[Speaker 2] (3:08:06 - 3:08:08)
Patrick, are you upset about that?

[Speaker 3] (3:08:12 - 3:09:10)
And then plan on the 19th too, and probably the 24th. So everyone's good with that. Okay, and then, doesn't seem like anyone's listening at home.

I should have mentioned this earlier, but we're not talking about Pine Street Purchase and Sale tonight, because there's no update there, but hopefully we'll be talking about that next week as well. So let's do the warrant for the town election. And this, I believe, is we just need to, we open the warrant for the town election, or we need to, is it opening?

Is that what we're doing, or we're approving this?

[Speaker 1] (3:09:10 - 3:09:13)
We just, I don't even know what the vote is.

[Speaker 2] (3:09:13 - 3:09:18)
Yeah, you're voting to approve. Polling locations? Yeah, the.

[Speaker 7] (3:09:20 - 3:09:21)
That everyone.

[Speaker 2] (3:09:21 - 3:09:24)
Approval of election warrants. A warrant, as presented.

[Speaker 1] (3:09:24 - 3:09:29)
Yeah, okay. And there should be a billion of them in a folder somewhere that we're supposed to sign tonight. Yes?

[Speaker 3] (3:09:30 - 3:09:40)
Or what are we doing? I have it, we're voting, oh, I know. I mean, all we have to sign is the one sheet that's in your packet.

[Speaker 1] (3:09:41 - 3:09:42)
Yeah, typically we're signing.

[Speaker 3] (3:09:44 - 3:09:44)
Multiple.

[Speaker 1] (3:09:44 - 3:09:56)
Oh yeah, I've never signed just one. So can we just, we need to do it today, tonight, so I'd make a motion to open the town election warrant in the form included in our packet. Second.

[Speaker 3] (3:09:57 - 3:10:05)
All right, further discussion? All those in favor? Aye.

Aye, okay.

[Speaker 4] (3:10:06 - 3:10:09)
Now, if there are more things that we have to sign, can we just use our electronic signature?

[Speaker 1] (3:10:09 - 3:10:20)
Yeah, everybody fine. I mean, I'm fine with that. I believe in the past we have signed, during COVID we may have done electric, so it's different, but I'm just saying, I know in the past we've had multiple of these.

[Speaker 4] (3:10:22 - 3:10:23)
Why would you have to sign more of them?

[Speaker 1] (3:10:23 - 3:10:26)
Because I think they, I can't answer the question.

[Speaker 4] (3:10:26 - 3:10:27)
For increasing things?

[Speaker 1] (3:10:27 - 3:10:34)
I believe they, I don't know. I can't answer the question. I just know that if you sign.

I'll look into it and I'll. Yeah, make sure that we're.

[Speaker 7] (3:10:35 - 3:10:36)
With my permission to go electric.

[Speaker 3] (3:10:36 - 3:10:58)
Doing whatever we need to do. Okay. Consent agenda.

The consent agenda consists of the minutes of our meeting from March 15th. Is there a motion to approve the consent agenda? So moved.

Second. Any further discussion?

[Speaker 2] (3:10:59 - 3:19:16)
All those in favor? Aye. Aye.

All right, Sean. Okay. Appreciate the board's review of the budget.

We are looking at fees and as Amy had mentioned, we'll have some recommendations for increasing some fees. I did meet with Harbor Master last week and he is recommending that we increase some of the mooring fees and we also met with a company called Aqua and they are going to be helping us coordinate some of the mooring and mooring field responsibilities. Aqua works with Marblehead and Boston and a number of other communities and we're gonna try them out.

Library's moving on a number of fronts. They're working with their library website redesign and really working through a number of community programs. They have just launched 10 subscribers with the new Roku service.

So if you're looking for online streaming services, you can rent that out from the library of things. Lots of grants are being applied for. They're looking for a new maker space.

So lastly, the library is working with an architect for some exterior redesign to reimagine how to enter the building. In particular, looking at ADA accessibility. Both police and fire departments are out looking for new candidates.

Chief Cassata reported to me that 65 individuals took the test for our recent police exam. 38 passed, of the 38 that passed, 13 took the physical abilities test and nine passed. This is a fairly low number and I've asked the chief to really think about how to look at the recruitment and testing process and find a more efficient way to fill these positions.

We'll have to certainly work with the union on this but we're in the midst of accreditation process as well as promotional process for two sergeants. So it's a busy time. I continue to meet with the superintendent and school finance director and the town finance team to discuss the special education reserve fund.

We're making progress and I hope to have information to share with you next week that really puts some of the numbers in context and really helps to continue to put together a foundation of teamwork that we've had over the last few years that have allowed the town and the school to work on these fiduciary responsibilities successfully. Jared Laliberte, our town clerk, has been doing some extraordinary work pulling together our annual town report. It's the first time that we've pulled this together in years and Jared really has helped pull that together.

I have a draft of it and really it's our hope that we'll get that out to town meeting members along with the warrant. Board of Health is moving forward with a recycling program for boat wrapping. So if you have a boat and you've got it wrapped, we have information out on our website.

We sent out a robocall for recycling that material. Last year we had 15 participants. We're looking to double that this year.

Our rec department is busy coordinating the delivery of 12 new paddle boards and six new sailboats this month. We have an Easter egg hunt at Town Hall 1 this Saturday, April 8th. We have our annual fireworks funding programs underway and certainly wanna thank Danielle and Jackie for coordinating our first St. Patrick's Day luncheon at Hawthorne. Last Friday I stopped down at the Senior Center to really congratulate the staff for coordinating their first By the Sea Social Day program. This is a program that we've looked to launch over the last few years. This starts a trial program where we're gonna be providing some support for families that have loved ones with dementia or need some care.

I think this is a really wonderful way for Swampskate to meet that emerging need. We have a caregiver support conference on Saturday, May 6th at the high school. There are 100 spaces for caregivers, so if you have a loved one that's dealing with tremendous responsibility for providing care, please sign up and really get some support.

Town staff are working on a dementia-friendly training program. It's a one-hour training program for staff. Would welcome the board to attend one of these training programs.

It's very helpful in really identifying ways that individuals with dementia really struggle with sensual impairments. We've filled a couple of positions over the DPW department. You know, Pete's been busy working with the assistant town clerk screening, and we have a number of other positions that we're currently looking to fill.

Fire department has an entrance exam on April 8th. We have 130 applicants. We will have a officers exam later this month, and we're close to finalizing our veterans services and dispatch contracts with the city of Wynn.

Last week, as I mentioned earlier, I had a productive conversation with VFW Commander Patrick Sork and breakfast with Commander Jeff Blonder and General Andrea Gayle Bennett of the DAV. I'll continue to coordinate some of those important relationships, but really want to thank the folks that are helping to support the Veterans Crossing organization. They have a number of events that they're planning, including Memorial Day and a number of summer concerts that really are gonna help build a stronger base of veterans services in Swanscot.

That's my report. Oh, lastly, there is a diaper drive. Did you know that April is National Child Abuse Prevention Month?

So in recognition of this, our health department is participating in a regional diaper drive with other health departments in the area. So we are looking for new and unopened diaper packages. All sizes are needed.

Newborn size six, size five and six are a great need, and baby wipes. The collection dates are April 3rd and April 28th. You can drop these off at Swanscot Town Hall, Swanscot Library, in the main entrance.

Drop-off times are regular business hours, but certainly if you could get the word out, these are greatly in need and would appreciate any donations that people have.

[Speaker 9] (3:19:17 - 3:19:44)
Sean, I had two quick questions. First was about the Board of Health, the Boatwrap Recycling Program. Is it fair to assume that the town is partnering and coordinating with the Yacht Club and the Commodore Chris Bendixson to ensure that the program is successful?

And I'm happy to facilitate, make an introduction, connect to Jeff.

[Speaker 2] (3:19:44 - 3:19:53)
I have not connected with the Commodore, but certainly it's a great idea, and I'm happy to reach out. Yeah, I just want this to be as successful a program as possible.

[Speaker 9] (3:19:53 - 3:20:20)
So I'm happy to make that connection. And then just about the police, when we talk about the 65 individuals who took the most recent test, 38 passed. And then there were 13 who took the physical abilities test.

Are the 13 who took the physical abilities test, did they take, are those individuals, are there 25 who have yet to take the physical test? Or what happened to those 25 individuals?

[Speaker 2] (3:20:20 - 3:20:48)
You know, we had a conflict on that. When I heard that the state police had an exam that day too, and I think a number of individuals may have just decided to take the state police exam. And so I've reached out to the chief to try to see if we can have another day for that physical fitness test.

Individuals did pay money to take the exam, and certainly want to make sure that we have as many individuals take that test.

[Speaker 3] (3:20:48 - 3:20:50)
Yeah, it's not unusual. I mean, do you know?

[Speaker 2] (3:20:50 - 3:20:53)
Look, I think- I'm sorry, what was the question?

[Speaker 3] (3:20:53 - 3:21:01)
Is it unusual for like a number of people to take the written test and then not- To pay to take the written test, and then have two thirds of them not show up for the physical test?

[Speaker 1] (3:21:01 - 3:21:02)
It tells you there's something wrong.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:03 - 3:21:24)
Something is wrong, and certainly... Look, we're learning as we go, and we're trying to address some of these challenges. We've got to figure this out.

I've asked the chief to come back and give me some information about how we can do more. So let's just stay on. I was going to ask the same question David asked.

[Speaker 1] (3:21:25 - 3:21:28)
So is the chief rescheduling and having another physical fitness exam?

[Speaker 2] (3:21:28 - 3:21:30)
I believe he is. Yes. Yes.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:31 - 3:21:59)
The reason I said yes is I know someone who took the test, and I asked how many people were there, and she told me that there was a smaller number, and one of the reasons it was a smaller number is because civil service or the state, whichever one, had decided to, after this date was posted, they actually released their date. So more people went to their date, and so we got short change, and that there's another date scheduled for small staff.

[Speaker 1] (3:21:59 - 3:22:00)
Great, so it's been scheduled.

[Speaker 4] (3:22:01 - 3:22:03)
There's another day. There's another day there, and that will be on it.

[Speaker 1] (3:22:03 - 3:22:05)
And so those 25 people are being notified?

[Speaker 4] (3:22:06 - 3:22:06)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (3:22:07 - 3:22:25)
Of that? Yes. I'm asking that they be notified.

You don't actually have to say they have been. Just let's make sure they're notified. Please.

Okay. And so we're not taking any action then on the candidate pool until that physical fitness test is taken, and?

[Speaker 2] (3:22:25 - 3:22:26)
We are not.

[Speaker 1] (3:22:26 - 3:22:56)
Okay, thank you. My second thing, since I already spoke, I was just, if you have an update on how your conversations with Tedesco have gone, as we talked about Tedesco, this year decided not to allow the town of Swampscott to have a charitable golf tournament, which is the predominant fundraiser for our fireworks, putting the pressure on taxpayers, donations, et cetera. For some reason, Tedesco decided that we didn't need to have a yearly fundraiser, and it's doing every other year now.

So I'm just wondering how your conversation with Tedesco went.

[Speaker 2] (3:22:56 - 3:23:14)
You know, Tedesco is gonna allow us to have a golf tournament, but we're gonna pay a fee. I haven't had a chance to express my frustration with paying a fee at all.

[Speaker 4] (3:23:15 - 3:23:17)
So we are having the golf tournament, but this year we have to pay a fee?

[Speaker 2] (3:23:18 - 3:23:18)
We do.

[Speaker 1] (3:23:18 - 3:24:06)
Well, we're not, we're having a golf tournament if we wanna pay the fee. That's right. Doesn't mean that we're having one.

Are you saying we're having one and paying it? We are, we're having one, yes. So why are we doing that and paying the fee?

I mean, I'm just gonna turn it around. I'm just gonna say this again. I am willing to put my name on any letter, and maybe we all are willing to.

I appreciate that we previously were gonna give them the benefit of the doubt that it was perhaps just a mistake on their part, but the mistake was apparently they just didn't tell us what the fee was originally. They have certain obligations under state law in which to provide some public benefit, and I guess I'd just be interested in understanding from them what they perceive that public benefit to be under the applicable statutes, and I'm happy we can find out when we go and pay a fee to go play golf there.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:06 - 3:24:19)
I had a conversation with somebody that is on their board, and I was asking them to work through the channel, but I'm happy to draft a letter and have the board sign it expressing. Well, I'm just, I'm just.

[Speaker 4] (3:24:19 - 3:24:24)
I'm not, I will not sign any letter without somebody having a conversation.

[Speaker 1] (3:24:25 - 3:24:46)
Yeah, well, I assume you've had a conversation, but. I have, but I haven't talked to the executive director. Okay, well, let's, you were gonna do it, and so let's do it, and again, you obviously can decide you're gonna pay a fee and do a fundraiser, and I appreciate the rec department wants to do it, I'm sure, to do the thing, but I think it's very hard to both protest and pay fees at the same time.

[Speaker 4] (3:24:48 - 3:24:53)
Can you just explain, I don't know the history of it, so did we get a golf tournament and we didn't pay a fee?

[Speaker 1] (3:24:53 - 3:25:00)
We haven't historically, historically, I don't know what the total arrangement's been, but historically, it's been donated. The last 10 years. From Tedesco.

[Speaker 4] (3:25:01 - 3:25:01)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (3:25:01 - 3:25:04)
And that's been used as a primary fundraiser for.

[Speaker 4] (3:25:05 - 3:25:14)
And now, they don't wanna donate it, but we don't know, we haven't had a conversation, we don't know why, I'm just wondering, what is the fee, is it nominal?

[Speaker 9] (3:25:14 - 3:25:39)
The agreement, the agreement for the last 10 years expired this year, therefore, when the rec director had reached out to Tedesco to schedule the golf tournament, there was a charge, a charge that was something in the neighborhood of 100 plus dollars just to play golf, not to mention the cost of food and banquet and everything else.

[Speaker 1] (3:25:39 - 3:25:40)
Oh, we have to pay some of that stuff anyway.

[Speaker 9] (3:25:40 - 3:26:31)
So yeah, that stuff is paid, but typically, typically, the greens fees were provided for free so that the town could have a very successful fundraiser and that price could be kept modest, of course. So that was something, so the rec director, I believe, was able to negotiate the rate down somewhat so that they could consistently have an event every year, albeit this year, it will not be as great of a fundraiser and as profitable as it has been in years past. Next year, I believe those greens fees will be waived completely because they're doing every other year, it's an alternate year pattern.

[Speaker 1] (3:26:32 - 3:26:48)
Again, I'm fine not sending a letter right now, I just want to know what they understand and the public benefit and I would welcome them, actually, to come talk to us. I don't actually need you to be their mouthpiece, I would invite them to come and explain to us why Swampscott shouldn't have that benefit.

[Speaker 2] (3:26:48 - 3:26:51)
I still don't think it's good enough to do it every other year, I think it's.

[Speaker 1] (3:26:51 - 3:26:57)
I agree, I don't think anybody's gonna disagree with you, I'm just saying let's invite them, let's have the executive director come talk to us.

[Speaker 4] (3:26:58 - 3:27:07)
I just hope there's a conversation, I just want to see a conversation about it. I agree. And if the conversation isn't the way we'd like it, I'm happy to sign a letter.

[Speaker 1] (3:27:08 - 3:27:09)
Yep, I agree.

[Speaker 4] (3:27:09 - 3:27:29)
I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt and to work together. I also, I would like to know, I'd like to have a time frame in the future, in the near future on what is happening with the fire and the police as far as hiring and filling all those spots.

[Speaker 7] (3:27:30 - 3:27:33)
Okay. Mr. Eagle to mention the new hire at the fire department.

[Speaker 2] (3:27:34 - 3:27:36)
Yes, we have hired, are you actually?

[Speaker 7] (3:27:36 - 3:27:37)
No, I mean Ryan, the doctor.

[Speaker 2] (3:27:37 - 3:27:50)
Yes, Ryan. Stopped by town hall today. Peter, there has been an initial round of interviews for the police candidates, so.

Okay, well that doesn't sound to me like we are waiting for the.

[Speaker 1] (3:27:50 - 3:28:57)
I have not interviewed anybody. But I think last time they, respectfully, I'm just articulating one person's opinion here. I believe that there is, for two-thirds of the people who paid to take the test and pass the test do not show up to show that there's a conflict.

For them to do any interviewing and making decisions without seeing the full scope of who qualified candidates are is not a comprehensive process. And it leads us down a path where they're going to say, here's our list, and they're gonna give it to you. And you're gonna say, but I want to wait for the others.

And they're gonna say, well, we don't want you to wait for the others. And it's gonna put, you know, it's unfortunate. But civil service can do what civil service does.

We should have known civil service did that. And we should have changed our physical fitness. Yeah, sorry, our physical fitness test.

We should have changed ours, because we can be nimble. We're just one town. Civil service was the whole state, right?

And we could have been nimble, and that just was missed. And I've just, you are in charge of hiring for the police department, not us. So I'm just articulating an opinion that I, frankly, with nine passed the physical, and only 13 took the physical, when 38 passed the exam and paid for the exam, tells me that that's a flawed process.

[Speaker 2] (3:28:58 - 3:28:59)
Yeah, it's abysmal.

[Speaker 1] (3:28:59 - 3:29:05)
I think that's the word I used. Yeah, that's a fair word. I'll adopt that one.

So thanks for the clarity, but I just.

[Speaker 2] (3:29:05 - 3:29:14)
Yeah, I'm not happy with that. I think it reflects, you know, that we did a few things poorly, and frankly, we should be better.

[Speaker 1] (3:29:14 - 3:29:18)
Yeah, it happens, but we can still fix it. That's, I just want to make sure that police fix it.

[Speaker 4] (3:29:18 - 3:29:30)
Well, if another physical is scheduled, if we put our schedule out, then a physical gets scheduled later, because of a problem. I mean, I think maybe that's out of our hands, but if we.

[Speaker 3] (3:29:30 - 3:29:31)
But it hasn't happened yet.

[Speaker 4] (3:29:31 - 3:29:33)
No, no, no. If we have another physical coming up.

[Speaker 1] (3:29:34 - 3:29:45)
No, I agree. Look, we're not responsible for civil service doing it, but we, in order to make our process successful, should have been aware of civil service doing that, because I'm sure we knew civil service did it. The communications are not too much.

[Speaker 4] (3:29:45 - 3:29:47)
I think we might want to check with that.

[Speaker 1] (3:29:47 - 3:30:33)
And so I'm just saying, I believe we should want to know that our dates are clear, and do it. That's all. It's just, these people, we had 38 people pass the test.

65 of them paid to take it. And only one third of the people that passed showed up for the physical. I mean, that's just not, that's a flawed process for whatever reason, period.

Hard stop. Like, that's not, there's something wrong there. And I was, before you explain the civil service, or whoever explained the civil service conflict, I was going to ask us to do interviews with the 25 individuals that decided not to take the physical test, and ask them why they didn't want to take the physical test, because that's just a glaring number of the problem.

Right. Right. So I'm glad that there was a conflict.

Because at least we have an explanation. But I don't think the process should proceed, personally. Understood.

[Speaker 3] (3:30:34 - 3:30:36)
All right. Select board time.

[Speaker 4] (3:30:37 - 3:30:48)
Oh, can I just ask a couple, do we have any information on, I had asked at the last select board meeting on information on ticketing, and warnings that are given out, and.

[Speaker 2] (3:30:48 - 3:30:51)
We did get some information. I will get that out to the board.

[Speaker 4] (3:30:51 - 3:31:03)
Okay, and do we have any information, I've asked for this for a while, on what is the proactive work that we're doing, as far as the coyote situation, and making sure it doesn't become a situation, like Nahant?

[Speaker 2] (3:31:03 - 3:31:15)
I have met with the chief, and I've had a discussion with the ACO, and we're working on a proactive plan. I'll have an update next week.

[Speaker 4] (3:31:16 - 3:31:34)
Okay, great. And I would just like to, I don't know, at some point, I mean, I guess we have the warrant going, we got a lot of stuff going on right now, but I really wanna have conversations about ARPA money. Those are my questions for you.

Those are just my questions, that's not my select board time.

[Speaker 3] (3:31:38 - 3:31:39)
Select board time?

[Speaker 7] (3:31:40 - 3:31:41)
I don't have any money yet.

[Speaker 4] (3:31:41 - 3:31:42)
You wanna do my select board time now?

[Speaker 3] (3:31:42 - 3:31:43)
You wanna just roll into it?

[Speaker 4] (3:31:43 - 3:32:44)
All right, so I just wanna give the update on a couple of my committees. Sean already updated on the Board of Health. Disability Commission didn't meet at their last meeting, because there was a problem with the non-Zoom to Zoom, we couldn't get into it, so they're meeting now.

Solid Waste is very busy with speaking with Republic, and getting additional data together. I'm gonna talk to them about composting, and get some other numbers. I know Wayne would like to come back and have a conversation, it's just we are a little bit time limited, so as soon as we can book Wayne from Solid Waste to come in, he'd like to do that.

And the assessors are processing abatements, and they're two-thirds of the way through. All the exemptions on excise tax applications are kept up as they come in, and then Cheryl Muschella, who is the new assessor, has hit the ground running, is doing a great job. So that's my update.

[Speaker 9] (3:32:44 - 3:33:58)
I have a couple of updates. So first and foremost, save the date, July 15th. Saturday, July 15th will be the fourth annual Bentwater Day at the Beach.

This is gonna be a day full of live music, full of food, and full of Bentwater beer, and community building. And another update, Katie and I yesterday met with a group of four Clark moms. These were very passionate women that want to bring back Big Blue Bargains, and they wanna do that in a big way.

And they're thinking outside of the box, and they're not gonna wait for the town or the school. They're gonna go do this, and Katie and I have pledged to dig into our Rolodexes and to figure out how we can best help this incredible town resource emerge like a phoenix. So hopefully we will see the resurgence of Big Blue Bargains in the coming weeks and months.

[Speaker 2] (3:33:59 - 3:34:00)
Look, we need it.

[Speaker 7] (3:34:00 - 3:34:01)
Where's the phoenix gonna go?

[Speaker 2] (3:34:01 - 3:34:02)
We need a, it gets.

[Speaker 7] (3:34:02 - 3:34:03)
Yeah, I think we can.

[Speaker 2] (3:34:04 - 3:34:12)
Yeah. Clothes out of our solid waste and reusable material. So I'd love to find a way.

[Speaker 7] (3:34:13 - 3:36:08)
Thanks. These four Clark moms. I have, I wanna thank Marilyn Cassidy for meeting me at Andrew Chapel and showing me inside that beautiful building.

I know that they are constantly, that committee is constantly trying to think of ways to invite more people into that building because it's not overly utilized. And so I have pledged to get a select board meeting in there. Hopefully that can happen.

I wasn't joking when I said, welcome to the new fire dog, Ryan. And I don't think we announced when, I can't remember if we announced when Sora, the school resource dog came on. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Sora if I mentioned Ryan.

And so I know both of these animals bring a lot of joy to our community. They bring a smile to everybody's face. I saw Chief Archer walking Ryan today and I just, how could you not smile?

I mean, it's a puppy. It was amazing. And so I just love that those things are happening around town and any way that we can pledge to continue to see those things come into fruition.

It's great in my book. I want to thank Superintendent Angelakis for inviting the elementary school PTOs to a meeting recently to talk about the unification of the PTOs and what it will look like for the new school and helping start that process of combining PTOs because before you know it, we'll be there. And so that was very exciting.

And also I want to let everybody who's on the Zoom call know I will be having lunch at the Senior Center on April 11th. So if you want to have lunch at the Senior Center with me, come on down. That's it.

[Speaker 3] (3:36:11 - 3:36:31)
Awesome, Peter. I'll just remind people just in case they're watching this in a recording, April 10th, Monday, 6.30 in this room and virtually there'll be a climate action plan community meeting to talk about the draft climate action plan and that will be coming to town meeting this spring. And we talked about it earlier today.

And that's all I have.

[Speaker 7] (3:36:32 - 3:36:35)
April 10th? What time? Monday.

[Speaker 3] (3:36:35 - 3:36:39)
April 10th, Monday, yep. Is there a motion to adjourn? So moved.

Second?

[Speaker 7] (3:36:40 - 3:36:41)
Second.

[Speaker 3] (3:36:42 - 3:36:43)
All those in favor?

[Speaker 7] (3:36:43 - 3:36:44)
Aye. Aye.

[Speaker 3] (3:36:44 - 3:36:48)
Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Diane. We didn't help you that much, did we?

[Speaker 16] (3:36:49 - 3:36:49)
Whew.