2024-05-29: Select Board

Click timestamps in the text to watch that part of the meeting recording.

Swampscott Select Board Meeting Analysis: May 29, 2024

Section 1: Agenda

Based on the transcript, the likely agenda followed this order:

  1. Call to Order & Pledge of Allegiance [0:02:34 / 0:05:14]
    • Led by John DiPietro
  2. Opening Remarks 0:05:30
    • Acknowledgement and thanks regarding the recent Annual Town Meeting.
  3. Town Administrator’s Report 0:06:14
    • Updates on DEI Consultant RFP, Town Meeting follow-up, Wholesome/Aggregate settlement progress, upcoming neighborhood meeting for new elementary school, Community Development activities (pier work, rain barrels, Master Plan Committee, Hazard Mitigation Plan grant), Memorial Day events recap.
  4. Public Comment 0:10:25
    • Luis Rizzullo: Anthony’s Pier 4 Committee suggestion 11:00
    • Lillian Worthley: Urging funding for Climate Action Plan/Sustainability Manager 11:52
    • Steve Pierce (via Teams): Query on timing for discussion on changing budget baseline formula 13:18
    • Andrea Moore: Comments on ARPA fund allocation process and community input 14:45
  5. New and Old Business
    • Continuation of Public Hearing: Dockside Pub Alteration of Premises 0:16:59 (Motion to continue)
      • Discussion on ADA accessibility, noise, hours, potential build-out.
      • Public comment from Moira Farrell and Luis Rizzullo.
      • Vote to approve alteration.
    • Discussion & Possible Vote on Selection of DEI Consultant 0:40:37
      • Introduction and process overview.
      • Presentation: HCH Enterprises 0:50:03
      • Presentation: ReadySet 1:24:48
      • Presentation: Rhodes Consulting Group 1:59:24
      • Board discussion and decision to table vote to next meeting.
    • Discussion & Possible Vote of Reuse of Town’s ARPA Funds 2:44:56
      • Public comment from Jonathan Lehman, Barbara DePico, Willis Jackson Schultz Jr., Lillian Worthley (via Teams), Dr. Arthur Friedman (via Teams).
      • Reading of emails from Ryan Hale and Kim Martin Epstein.
      • Extensive Board discussion and debate.
      • Vote on amended allocation proposal.
    • Election of Select Board Officers 4:21:27
      • Vote for Chair and Vice Chair.
  6. Consent Agenda 4:22:19
    • Approval of Hawking & Peddling Application (Morph Management/Verizon).
    • Minutes from 5/8, 5/15, 5/20 pulled for later review.
  7. Select Board Time 4:24:35
    • Discussion on initiating planning for a Financial Summit.
    • Acknowledgements and thanks to outgoing Chair Eppley.
    • Announcements (Pride Race).
    • Comments on Town Meeting aftermath and working together.
  8. Adjournment 4:31:32

Section 2: Speaking Attendees

  • David Eppley (Select Board Chair): [Speaker 5] (Opens meeting, manages flow, participates in discussions, is thanked as outgoing Chair)
  • John DiPietro (Resident): [Speaker 21] (Leads Pledge of Allegiance, as identified by Speaker 5)
  • Sean Fitzgerald (Town Administrator): [Speaker 1] (Delivers TA Report, answers operational questions, provides context during debates)
  • Luis Rizzullo (Resident/Public Commenter): [Speaker 18] (Identifies self, comments on Anthony’s Pier 4, Dockside/rats)
  • Lillian Worthley (Resident/Public Commenter): [Speaker 26] (Identifies self during initial public comment 11:52, comments on climate funding/ARPA 2:55:08)
  • Steve Pierce (Public Commenter, likely former official): [Speaker 17] (Identified as “Steve” by Speaker 5, comments via Teams on budget baseline)
  • Andrea Moore (Town Meeting Member/Public Commenter): [Speaker 20] (Identifies self, comments on ARPA process/listening)
  • Mary Ellen Fletcher (Select Board Member / Incoming Chair): [Speaker 7] (Asks questions during Dockside/DEI, makes ARPA reallocation motion, engages heavily in ARPA debate, elected Chair)
  • Barbara DePico (Resident/Public Commenter): [Speaker 27] (Identifies self 2:51:11, comments on ARPA/sewers/fixed income. Also appears to make interjections/comments elsewhere, e.g., 4:16:23)
  • Doug Thompson (Select Board Member): [Speaker 4] (Asks questions/comments on Dockside, DEI; makes Dockside motion, engages heavily in ARPA debate, makes officer nomination motion, initiates SB Time discussion)
  • Andrew Injume (Dockside Pub Representative): [Speaker 23] (Identifies self, represents Dockside during hearing)
  • Katie Phelan (Select Board Member / Incoming Vice Chair): [Speaker 3] (Asks questions/comments on Dockside, DEI; seconds ARPA motion, argues for ARPA reallocation, elected Vice Chair, thanks outgoing Chair)
  • Danielle Leonard (Select Board Member): [Speaker 8] (Asks questions during DEI, ARPA; engages in ARPA debate focusing on specifics/priorities)
  • Moira Farrell (Resident/Public Commenter): [Speaker 16] (Identifies self, comments on Dockside safety/rats)
  • Pete Kane (Assistant Town Administrator / Procurement Officer): [Speaker 15] (Explains DEI RFP process, manages presenters, provides procedural context)
  • Nicole (HCH Enterprises Representative): [Speaker 12] (Identifies self, presents for HCH)
  • Dr. Marissa Barrows (HCH Enterprises Representative): [Speaker 6] (Identifies self, presents for HCH)
  • Chelsea Lovett (HCH Enterprises Representative): [Speaker 26] (Identifies self during HCH presentation 52:44 - Note: Tag reused from Lillian Worthley)
  • Mia Solis-Ramirez (HCH Enterprises Representative): [Speaker 9] (Identifies self during HCH presentation 53:29)
  • Maria Bonaparte (HCH Enterprises Representative): [Speaker 24] (Identifies self, presents for HCH)
  • Viveka Kaimali (ReadySet Representative): [Speaker 14] (Identifies self, presents/answers questions for ReadySet)
  • Meghna Bajmudar (ReadySet Representative): [Speaker 2] (Identifies self, presents/answers questions for ReadySet)
  • Dr. Jose Perez (Rhodes Consulting Group Representative): [Speaker 11] (Identifies self, presents/answers questions for Rhodes)
  • Stephanie A. Smith (Rhodes Consulting Group Representative): [Speaker 9] (Identifies self during Rhodes presentation 2:04:04 - Note: Tag reused from Mia Solis-Ramirez)
  • Marcus Moore (Rhodes Consulting Group Representative): [Speaker 10] (Identified by Speaker 11, presents/answers questions for Rhodes)
  • Cliff Watkins (Rhodes Consulting Group Representative): [Speaker 19] (Identified by Speaker 11, answers questions for Rhodes)
  • Jonathan Lehman (Town Meeting Member / Historical Commission Vice Chair / Public Commenter): [Speaker 13] (Identifies self, comments on ARPA/Glover)
  • Willis Jackson Schultz, Jr. (HWAC Chair / Town Meeting Member / Public Commenter): [Speaker 25] (Identifies self, comments on ARPA/resiliency)
  • Dr. Arthur Friedman (Resident/Public Commenter): [Speaker 22] (Identified by Board, comments via Teams on ARPA/sewers/safety)
  • Amy LaMarche (Finance Director / Town Accountant): [Speaker 17] (Identified as “Amy” 3:20:29, provides financial clarifications on ARPA [e.g., 2:43:52, 3:22:05, 4:01:50, 4:08:52])

Section 3: Meeting Minutes

1. Call to Order & Preliminaries 0:02:34 Chair David Eppley called the meeting to order. Following the Pledge of Allegiance led by resident John DiPietro 0:05:14, Chair Eppley thanked Town Meeting members, staff, and volunteers for their efforts during the recent Annual Town Meeting 0:05:30.

2. Town Administrator’s Report 0:06:14 Town Administrator (TA) Sean Fitzgerald provided updates:

  • DEI Consultant RFP: Highlighted the robust response and the importance of the upcoming discussion for building a more inclusive Swampscott.
  • Town Meeting: Echoed thanks and stressed the importance of balancing municipal fiduciary responsibilities.
  • Wholesome/Aggregate Settlement: Progress continues towards a settlement, with Board of Health support secured 0:07:53.
  • New Elementary School: A neighborhood meeting is scheduled for June 11th at 6 pm 0:08:13, per Member Leonard’s request, to discuss upcoming work.
  • Community Development: Geotechnical work on the pier occurred; rain barrels are available; the Master Plan Committee’s first meeting is this week; a $5,000 grant was received for the Hazard Mitigation Plan update.
  • Memorial Day: Thanked committees, veterans agent, and citizens for poignant events, noting few communities do as much.

3. Public Comment 0:10:25

  • Luis Rizzullo suggested forming a committee for the Anthony’s Pier 4 property reuse process 11:00.
  • Lillian Worthley urged approval of funding for the Climate Action Plan, particularly a Sustainability Manager position 11:52.
  • Steve Pierce (via Teams) emphasized the need for timely discussion on the town’s budget baseline formula before the next budget cycle 13:18.
  • Andrea Moore expressed concern that the initial ARPA fund allocation didn’t reflect community survey input favoring sewer funding and urged the Board to ensure residents feel heard 14:45.

4. New/Old Business: Dockside Pub Alteration of Premises 0:16:59 The public hearing, continued from a previous meeting, resumed.

  • TA Fitzgerald reported the Building Commissioner confirmed adequate sidewalk width (48 inches) for ADA accessibility 0:17:20.
  • Dockside representative Andrew Injume addressed the Board.
  • Member Thompson confirmed adequate space if tables are placed appropriately but urged consistent enforcement of accessibility standards town-wide 0:18:08. TA Fitzgerald committed to a review 0:19:13.
  • Member Phelan inquired about kitchen hours 19:47 and suggested potential time restrictions for outdoor seating to mitigate noise, proposing maybe 9:00 or 9:30 PM last seating 20:05.
  • Member Fletcher raised concerns about navigating around the mailbox 21:13 and preferred a straight path, also citing noise concerns (late-night dining, music, bag toss game) 24:00. Mr. Injume confirmed outdoor music was turned off following the last meeting 24:31.
  • Member Phelan suggested exploring a parking spot build-out as an alternative to sidewalk seating 22:46. TA Fitzgerald noted grant funding limitations but openness to exploring this post-July 1st 22:56.
  • TA Fitzgerald and Board Members acknowledged Mr. Injume’s efforts to be a good neighbor [25:39, 26:06]. Chair Eppley and Member Phelan expressed strong support for the business [26:59, 28:13].
  • Resident Moira Farrell spoke in opposition 29:39, citing significant pedestrian safety concerns on Humphrey Street (traffic speed, U-turns, egress density) and issues with garbage management contributing to rodent problems.
  • TA Fitzgerald acknowledged safety issues and the rodent problem, promising follow-up with Public Health and business education on waste management 33:57. Member Phelan noted the rodent issue is broader than just Dockside 35:51.
  • Resident Luis Rizzullo suggested improved town trash receptacles (solar compactors) could help mitigate rodent issues town-wide 37:58.
  • Motion: Member Thompson moved to approve the alteration of premises application 39:40. Second: Member Phelan 39:58.
  • Member Fletcher inquired if time restrictions were included 40:00; Member Thompson clarified they were not conditions of the approval but could be revisited if issues arise.
  • Vote: The motion passed 40:35. The discussion was detailed, balancing business support with accessibility and neighborhood quality-of-life concerns.

5. New/Old Business: DEI Consultant Selection 0:40:37 Assistant TA Pete Kane and Member Phelan introduced the item, outlining the RFP process which resulted in three finalist firms [42:28, 43:33]. Discussion touched on the scope (town-side, approx. 150 employees vs. schools’ 400+) 44:58, the need for coordination with the school district’s prior DEI work 45:51, and the importance of approaching the topic thoughtfully given potential community sensitivities 48:18.

  • Presentations & Q&A:
    • HCH Enterprises 0:50:03
    • ReadySet 1:24:48
    • Rhodes Consulting Group 1:59:24 (Included an interactive exercise defining equity 2:15:13)
    • Board questions focused on experience with small towns, approach to union engagement, addressing religious diversity, community engagement strategies, and identifying successful MA municipal DEI examples.
  • Board Discussion: Member Thompson raised the need for public input 2:35:45. Member Fletcher suggested delaying the vote to allow public feedback 2:37:43, with Member Phelan cautioning to manage expectations 2:38:11. Finance Director Amy LaMarche noted the FY24 funding source requires a contract signature by June 30th 2:43:52.
  • Outcome: The Board reached consensus to table the vote until the next meeting to allow for public input (via email) and further review, acknowledging the tight deadline.

6. New/Old Business: ARPA Funds Reuse 2:44:56 The Board revisited the allocation of ~$2.1M in ARPA funds, previously voted on April 17th.

  • Public/Email Input: Comments reflected a clear division:
    • Supporting original balanced allocation/process: Jonathan Lehman (also for Glover House) 2:45:33, Willis Jackson Schultz Jr. (also for resiliency) 2:52:58, Lillian Worthley (also for climate manager/resiliency) 2:55:08, Ryan Hale (email - process integrity) 2:56:11, Kim Martin Epstein (email - questioning change, supports PHA funding) 2:58:06.
    • Supporting reallocation primarily to sewers: Barbara DePico (fixed income impact) 2:51:11, Dr. Arthur Friedman (beach safety) 3:01:33, Andrea Moore (earlier comment on community preference) 14:45.
  • Board Deliberation: An extensive and dynamic debate followed.
    • Member Fletcher moved to reallocate $1.606M to the Fisherman’s Beach sewer project and distribute the remaining ~$415K across several other initiatives (PHA, Econ Dev, Resiliency consultant, IDDE, Public Health, Glover, Parks, Reading Curriculum) 3:03:38. Member Phelan seconded, arguing strongly for prioritizing taxpayer relief given upcoming budget pressures and the one-time nature of ARPA funds 3:07:10.
    • Chair Eppley argued against the motion, advocating for the previously approved balanced approach, highlighting the critical need for resiliency funding (absent in Fletcher’s initial motion) and the Climate Action Manager position, and cautioning against becoming overly focused on one issue 3:10:48.
    • Member Thompson questioned the premise, noting the Fisherman’s Beach project was already funded via the Capital Plan approved at Town Meeting [3:18:28, 3:43:14], sparking debate about whether ARPA would supplement or replace those funds and the impact on borrowing/rates.
    • Member Leonard questioned the derivation of funding amounts in both proposals, sought more specifics on project scopes, and emphasized listening to resident priorities, particularly regarding beach safety and affordability 3:26:03.
    • TA Fitzgerald provided context on project planning (e.g., PHA study rationale 3:27:40), the complexities of infrastructure funding, the town’s fiscal health efforts, and cautioned against decision-making solely based on vocal advocates 4:00:29.
    • Finance Director LaMarche provided crucial clarifications on eligible uses (school curriculum ineligible 3:22:05, parks likely ineligible 4:08:52) and obligation deadlines 4:01:50.
    • Collaborative Revision: The Board engaged in a collaborative revision process, using the whiteboard 4:14:02, adjusting funding amounts based on discussion (e.g., increasing climate consultant funding 4:04:24, clarifying public health scope 4:07:54, setting aside resiliency project funds contingent on grant success 4:10:17).
  • Outcome: Member Leonard moved an amended allocation 4:19:57, seconded by Member Phelan 4:20:17, reflecting the compromise reached:
    • Fisherman’s Beach Sewer Project (Shovel Ready): $1,514,555
    • Swampscott Housing Authority Redevelopment Feasibility Study: $50,000
    • Town-Wide Economic Development Study: $60,000
    • Climate Action / Resiliency Manager (Consultant): $75,000
    • Resiliency Projects (Coastal Study): $200,000 (Contingent on grant outcome; if grant received & match is lower, remainder potentially reallocated, potentially to sewers, before 12/31/24)
    • Fisherman’s Beach IDDE/MS4: $50,000
    • Public Health Initiatives (incl. Mental Health): $121,555
    • General Glover House Historic Preservation: $50,000
    • TOTAL: $2,121,110 (Subject to final verification and eligibility checks, esp. Glover).
  • Vote: The amended motion passed 4:21:00, with Chair Eppley noting “grudging” agreement, concluding a lengthy and often contentious discussion that ultimately resulted in a compromise.

7. Election of Select Board Officers 4:21:27

  • Motion: Member Thompson nominated Mary Ellen Fletcher for Chair and Katie Phelan for Vice Chair 4:21:44. Seconded.
  • Vote: Approved unanimously 4:22:19.

8. Consent Agenda 4:22:19

  • Meeting Minutes (5/8, 5/15, 5/20): Pulled for later review.
  • Hawking & Peddling Application (Morph Management/Verizon): Approved after discussion clarifying identification requirements and TA Fitzgerald noting the constitutionally protected nature of the activity 4:24:35.

9. Select Board Time 4:24:35

  • Member Thompson requested adding discussion/planning for a Town Financial Summit to a near-future agenda, citing urgency given recent Town Meeting discussions 4:24:35. TA Fitzgerald noted the significant data work involved 4:25:35. The Board expressed commitment to holding the summit, likely planning over the summer 4:27:08.
  • Member Phelan and Member Fletcher offered thanks and appreciation to outgoing Chair Eppley for his service [4:27:27, 4:28:26].
  • Chair Eppley announced the Swampscott Pride Race on June 1st 4:28:44.
  • Member Fletcher commented on the Town Meeting dynamic, urging collaboration and respect among different town bodies and stakeholders 4:29:37. Member Thompson added appreciation for the TA’s role during Town Meeting 4:31:00.

10. Adjournment 4:31:32 A motion to adjourn was made, seconded, and approved unanimously.

Section 4: Executive Summary

ARPA Funds Reallocated After Extensive Debate, Compromise Reached The Select Board engaged in a lengthy and often contentious debate regarding the use of approximately $2.1 million in American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) funds, ultimately voting to approve a revised allocation 4:21:00 that differed significantly from a plan tentatively approved in April. The final compromise directs over $1.5 million to sewer infrastructure work at Fisherman’s Beach, aiming to provide relief to sewer ratepayers facing future increases. Smaller amounts were allocated to various initiatives including a Swampscott Housing Authority redevelopment study ($50K), an economic development study ($60K), a climate action/resiliency consultant ($75K), critical coastal resiliency studies ($200K, contingent on grant success), public health programs ($121.5K), and seed money for the General Glover House preservation ($50K).

  • Significance: This decision reflects a difficult balancing act between addressing resident concerns about rising sewer rates and investing in other pressing town needs like climate resilience, affordable housing assessment, public health, and economic development. The debate highlighted differing philosophies on the Board regarding the best use of these one-time federal funds and the weight given to immediate taxpayer impact versus longer-term strategic investments. The final allocation represents a compromise attempting to address multiple priorities, though with a strong emphasis shifted towards infrastructure/rate relief compared to the April plan.

DEI Consultant Selection Delayed for Public Input Amid Fiscal Deadline Following presentations from three finalist firms (HCH Enterprises 0:50:03, ReadySet 1:24:48, Rhodes Consulting Group 1:59:24), the Board opted to delay selecting a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) consultant until its next meeting 2:42:17. This allows time for Board reflection and public feedback via email. However, the Finance Director reminded the Board that the FY24 funds allocated require a contract to be signed by June 30th 2:43:52, creating a tight timeline.

  • Significance: Swampscott is formally moving to integrate DEI principles into town operations, a significant step for the municipality. The delay underscores the Board’s desire for a thoughtful process on a potentially sensitive topic, while the deadline imposes urgency. Discussions also touched on the need for coordination with the School Department’s separate DEI initiatives [45:51, 2:39:54].

Dockside Pub Outdoor Dining Approved with Accessibility Focus The Board approved Dockside Pub’s request to alter its premises for outdoor sidewalk dining 40:35. The discussion centered heavily on ensuring adequate ADA accessibility [17:20, 18:08] and addressing neighborhood concerns about noise and late hours [19:47, 24:00]. The Town Administrator committed to reviewing accessibility compliance town-wide 19:13.

  • Significance: This decision highlights the ongoing challenge of balancing support for local businesses contributing to town vibrancy with maintaining residential quality of life and ensuring public access, particularly in high-traffic areas like Humphrey Street.

New Select Board Leadership Elected Following standard procedure, the Board elected new officers for the upcoming year: Mary Ellen Fletcher will serve as Chair, and Katie Phelan as Vice Chair 4:22:19.

Financial Summit Planning to Commence The Board agreed to prioritize planning for a comprehensive Town Financial Summit, likely over the summer [4:24:35, 4:27:08].

  • Significance: Driven by recent contentious budget discussions at Town Meeting, this initiative aims to provide a deep dive into town and school finances, potentially informing future budget strategies and addressing structural fiscal issues.

Town Administrator Updates Key updates included continued progress toward settling litigation with Wholesome/Aggregate 7:53 and a planned neighborhood meeting on June 11th regarding the new consolidated elementary school 8:13.

Section 5: Analysis

ARPA Debate Reveals Deep Divisions and Shifting Priorities: The nearly two-hour debate on ARPA funds [starting 2:44:56] was the meeting’s centerpiece, exposing significant divisions within the Select Board regarding fiscal priorities and the interpretation of resident input. The Fletcher/Phelan bloc effectively argued for prioritizing immediate taxpayer relief by maximizing sewer funding, leveraging vocal resident concerns about affordability and framing ARPA as a unique tool to mitigate impending rate hikes 3:07:10. Their position appeared strengthened by arguments that other needs, while valid, could potentially be funded through other mechanisms or grants over time. Conversely, the Eppley/Thompson bloc emphasized the Board’s duty to maintain a “balanced” portfolio of investments 3:10:48, arguing that neglecting areas like climate resiliency and housing assessment represented a different kind of long-term cost and that the sewer funding was already secured via the Capital Plan/SRF strategy 3:43:14. Member Leonard’s questioning sought concrete justifications for funding levels 3:26:03, pushing for specifics beyond broad categories and acting as a catalyst for the eventual compromise.

The final vote 4:21:00, reached after a somewhat chaotic collaborative revision 4:14:02, reflected a significant shift from the April 17th allocation. While presented as a compromise touching multiple areas, the decision heavily favored the sewer/rate relief argument ($1.5M+), drastically reducing or eliminating funding for other initiatives initially proposed (e.g., climate manager position reduced to a smaller consultant fund, park upgrades deemed ineligible, pedestrian safety eliminated). The effectiveness of the “taxpayer relief now” argument, combined with the perceived urgency of sewer infrastructure needs (framed by some as a safety issue), ultimately outweighed arguments for broader, perhaps more strategic, use of the one-time funds for initiatives less likely to find alternative funding streams. The Finance Director’s interventions regarding eligibility [e.g., 4:08:52] and deadlines 4:01:50 played a crucial, grounding role in shaping the final, constrained possibilities. The “grudging” nature of the consensus suggests these underlying tensions about priorities may resurface.

DEI Selection Process: Caution Amidst Urgency: The Board’s handling of the DEI consultant selection demonstrated caution. Despite strong presentations and a tight fiscal deadline 2:43:52, the consensus to delay the vote 2:42:17 reflected an awareness of the topic’s sensitivity and a desire for public buy-in, or at least the appearance thereof. Board members’ questions probed practical implementation in a small-town context [1:12:32, 1:56:26] and the potential for navigating disagreement 2:22:09, indicating a pragmatic focus beyond conceptual DEI goals. The contrast between the firms’ approaches—from HCH’s structured plan 0:59:36 to ReadySet’s emphasis on culture/human-centered design 1:29:06 to Rhodes’ interactive engagement 2:15:13—provides the Board distinct options, but the final choice remains pending.

Dockside Hearing: Microcosm of Business vs. Resident Needs: The Dockside hearing served as a practical example of the Board mediating between encouraging local business and addressing resident concerns. The owner’s responsiveness (turning off music 24:31) appeared effective in building goodwill. Board members demonstrated attention to concrete details (ADA measurements 17:20, noise sources 24:00). The discussion highlighted the difficulty in applying consistent standards (Member Thompson’s point on accessibility 18:08) and the limitations of the Board’s direct control (e.g., imposing hours vs. relying on owner cooperation 40:11). TA Fitzgerald positioned the administration as both facilitator (exploring build-out options 22:56) and enforcer (ensuring compliance 19:13).

Town Meeting’s Lingering Influence: The shadow of the recent Annual Town Meeting hung over the proceedings. Direct references 5:30, the impetus for the Financial Summit discussion 4:24:35, and the framing of the ARPA debate in terms of taxpayer burden and process integrity (Hale email 2:56:11) demonstrated Town Meeting’s ongoing impact on the Board’s agenda and dynamics. Member Fletcher’s closing remarks about needing to “reel it in and all work together” 4:30:58 explicitly acknowledged post-Town Meeting tensions.