[Speaker 1] (1:12 - 1:27) October meeting of the Swampscott Zoning Board of Appeals. Um the first item on our agenda is to approve the minutes from um last month, not the minutes from last week's meeting, but the minutes from the previous month that we all received. Um can I just get a motion to [Speaker 2] (1:27 - 1:30) Um, make a motion to approve the meeting minutes from last month. [Speaker 2] (1:30 - 1:30) Thank you. [Speaker 1] (1:31 - 1:31) Need a second? [Speaker 3] (1:31 - 1:31) Second. [Speaker 4] (1:31 - 1:31) Second. [Speaker 1] (1:32 - 1:33) All in favour? [Speaker 2] (1:33 - 1:33) Aye. [Speaker 1] (1:33 - 1:38) Aye. Excellent. Alright. The our next item is um [Speaker 1] (1:40 - 1:42) Petition number 25-17, [Speaker 1] (1:42 - 1:47) which is 40 Essex Street and 24 through 26 Essex Street, [Speaker 1] (1:47 - 1:59) and that is for the extended use of a pre-existing repair garage as well as the addition of a spray booth. [Speaker 1] (2:00 - 2:01) Who's here to speak on that petition? [Speaker 5] (2:06 - 2:08) Good evening. I'm attorney Sam Vitale. [Speaker 5] (2:08 - 2:08) With me is... [Speaker 5] (2:09 - 2:13) Uh, Gennaro, uh who is the principal of Lawley's Garage LLC, [Speaker 5] (2:14 - 2:36) having acquired uh that entity uh in the fall, I think, of twenty twenty two. He's also the principal of Realty Investors that owns the real estate uh at the locus, uh and as the chairwoman indicated, we're here to get approval of a special permit with respect to the addition of a spray booth at the location. Um. [Speaker 5] (2:37 - 2:40) Probably people in this room better know than I do the history of this site. [Speaker 5] (2:41 - 2:43) I think it's well known by most Swampscott residents. [Speaker 5] (2:45 - 2:49) Lally's Garage, I would think, has been close to a century. [Speaker 5] (2:49 - 2:53) In the 1930s and 40s, it was organized with John Lally, [Speaker 5] (2:53 - 2:57) and then subsequently it was run by Bob Wilson, [Speaker 5] (2:57 - 3:00) and then Gennaro acquired it, [Speaker 5] (3:00 - 3:04) and with it the assets of the business as well as the... [Speaker 5] (3:04 - 3:10) the permits and approvals that have been there. It's been used continuously with respect to auto repair. [Speaker 5] (3:10 - 3:17) I think anecdotally, and from what I've been told by Swampscott residents and historically, there was body work done there. [Speaker 5] (3:17 - 3:26) People have given me stories that John Lawley used to go down and get the police cruisers when they were in an accident or other city owned vehicles, [Speaker 5] (3:26 - 3:28) bring them back to his shop, fix them, [Speaker 5] (3:28 - 3:33) both whether it was body wise or mechanical wise. The reason we're here is that [Speaker 5] (3:34 - 3:35) Like many businesses, [Speaker 5] (3:35 - 3:38) the technology is now changed. [Speaker 5] (3:39 - 3:45) No longer can anybody have a spray booth and jury rig it and build it in their backyard. [Speaker 5] (3:45 - 3:48) This is a highly regulated piece of equipment. [Speaker 5] (3:49 - 3:54) The manufacturers who distribute them are well aware of the regulations that involve the environment. [Speaker 5] (3:56 - 4:22) uh fire suppression and so typically when you acquire one of these machines it comes with all of the uh bells and whistles that ensure protection of the environment, protection of the site, um and we're not asking you to waive any of those, nor do you have the authority. But any jurisdiction that has uh any authority that has jurisdiction, whether it's over the environmental aspects, uh the fire prevention, [Speaker 5] (4:22 - 4:26) the use of the interior of the building. [Speaker 5] (4:28 - 4:54) we have to comply with so this is a stop along the way your approval is really related to the zoning use your current table of uses I think it's number nine in the b1 districts has does not have this as a permitted use that's why it's a pre-existing non-conforming use it's been there prior to the adoption of zoning and what we're proposing to do is essentially the same [Speaker 5] (4:54 - 4:58) same type of use in this similar manner, [Speaker 5] (4:58 - 5:01) and we think it will have little or no adverse effect. [Speaker 5] (5:02 - 5:06) on the neighborhood let alone a substantial detrimental effect. [Speaker 5] (5:06 - 5:12) So let me go through and reflect on why I gave you those items. [Speaker 5] (5:12 - 5:16) With respect to the current use, [Speaker 5] (5:16 - 5:23) the automobile business and the repair business has changed. If you have the misfortune of having to get your car fixed or repaired from an accident, [Speaker 5] (5:23 - 5:27) you'll find that they'll use a tablet to make a diagnostic. [Speaker 5] (5:28 - 5:31) determination of what's wrong with the engine. [Speaker 5] (5:31 - 5:33) They don't even lift the hood anymore. [Speaker 5] (5:33 - 5:36) They just plug in this tablet. [Speaker 5] (5:36 - 5:37) And likewise, [Speaker 5] (5:37 - 5:46) if you have body work that's done and you've got an outstanding color or whatever, they punch in the information on your vehicle and up comes the paint that they should use. [Speaker 5] (5:47 - 5:50) So, and as I look around this room, [Speaker 5] (5:50 - 5:55) I don't think there's many people as old as I am, but I can tell you that on Tuesday nights... [Speaker 5] (5:56 - 5:57) When I was a kid, [Speaker 5] (5:57 - 6:02) people would watch at 8 o'clock Milton Berle on the show of whatever he had. [Speaker 5] (6:02 - 6:06) It was a little six-inch black and white screen brought to you by Texaco. [Speaker 5] (6:07 - 6:12) And why I point that out is that if you have any memory like I do of those ads, [Speaker 5] (6:12 - 6:26) there would be a gas station attendant who would come and clean your windshield, and then he would check your tires, and then he would pump your gas, and then if you were really lucky, they might give away a set of glasses or whatever. [Speaker 5] (6:27 - 6:29) I've had the good fortune to represent mobile oil. [Speaker 5] (6:30 - 6:45) Shell oil and I can tell you that's not what the modern gas station is like nor is it what the modern auto repair and body shop is like. The reason we're here as I indicated if you look at that table of uses but what I also did [Speaker 5] (6:48 - 7:05) what in the definition of what we're seeking and that is it says this is from your definitions it says a motor vehicle general and body repair shop an establishment garage or work area enclosed within a building for the servicing and repair of autos [Speaker 5] (7:06 - 7:23) including fenders bumpers and similar components of motor vehicle bodies but not including storage of vehicles for the cannibalization of parts or fuel sales so it tells you what it is and it tells you what it isn't our proposal doesn't change the footprint of the building [Speaker 5] (7:23 - 7:25) If anything, [Speaker 5] (7:25 - 7:26) the exterior will be improved. [Speaker 5] (7:27 - 7:29) Likewise, in the interior of the building, [Speaker 5] (7:29 - 7:31) it will be state-of-the-art equipment. [Speaker 5] (7:32 - 7:39) I looked over today a specification and I brought a few of the pages from a manufacturer of a spray booth. [Speaker 5] (7:40 - 7:42) And I saw great attention to detail, [Speaker 5] (7:42 - 7:44) to issues like fire suppression, [Speaker 5] (7:44 - 7:48) issues like particulate and what to do with the pollution. [Speaker 5] (7:48 - 7:52) I talk with Gennaro and with respect to the venting of anything, [Speaker 5] (7:52 - 7:59) it would be on the side that faces the building he owns, which is the smaller building of Lally's garage. [Speaker 5] (8:00 - 8:05) The work we're talking about is in the larger building in the interior. [Speaker 5] (8:06 - 8:34) within one uh when i filed the application i thought i addressed each of the items for your special permit criteria one of them did deal with the environment it's the same hours it's the same location and it's uh what we want to do is add that one other service which is the body in terms of 48-6 finding [Speaker 5] (8:35 - 8:37) As you are well familiar, [Speaker 5] (8:38 - 8:45) it relates to whether what you propose to do is substantially more detrimental in its effect than the neighborhood. [Speaker 5] (8:45 - 8:52) And I would suggest to you this isn't even more detrimental. It's similar to what had been done in the past. [Speaker 5] (8:53 - 9:03) And now it's going to be done properly in a better manner suited for the current nature of the auto repair and auto body business. [Speaker 5] (9:04 - 9:14) So we will be hopeful that this is a indicated first step along the way. Should the board choose to approve and grant and make the finding for the special permit, [Speaker 5] (9:14 - 9:18) then we would have to deal with the fire department. We would have to deal with the. [Speaker 5] (9:19 - 9:36) building department but as far as abrogating or seeking relief from any current existing DEP or EPA or any regulation that relates to the environment and pollution or to fire safety. [Speaker 5] (9:37 - 9:40) We're not seeking that. We're seeking to play by the rules, [Speaker 5] (9:40 - 9:42) to do it better than it has been done in the past, [Speaker 5] (9:42 - 9:46) to create some work opportunities for people within the town, [Speaker 5] (9:46 - 9:56) and more importantly, to provide a service that we think the citizens of the community may well have need for, whether it's auto repair or auto body. [Speaker 5] (9:56 - 9:59) I'd be glad to answer any questions any member may have. [Speaker 2] (10:02 - 10:06) So is there a spray booth there now, currently? [Speaker 1] (10:06 - 10:07) No. [Speaker 2] (10:08 - 10:10) There is not and there hasn't been? [Speaker 1] (10:10 - 10:11) No. [Speaker 1] (10:11 - 10:17) I can't speak to the past with John Lally because I... [Speaker 1] (10:17 - 10:19) Hadn't been in the garage when Ali owned it. [Speaker 1] (10:20 - 10:25) I don't know. I just know what people told me about what transpired in the past. [Speaker 2] (10:25 - 10:27) Yeah, so but right now there isn't a working spray booth. [Speaker 2] (10:27 - 10:30) And what are the current hours, just for the record? [Speaker 1] (10:31 - 10:32) The current hours? [Speaker 2] (10:32 - 10:33) The hours are staying the same, [Speaker 1] (10:33 - 10:33) Seven [Speaker 2] (10:33 - 10:34) remaining the same. [Speaker 1] (10:34 - 10:35) to five generally. [Speaker 2] (10:35 - 10:35) 75, thanks. [Speaker 3] (10:42 - 10:43) Mr. [Speaker 3] (10:43 - 10:43) Vitale. [Speaker 4] (10:44 - 11:05) So what use that is what I'm trying to figure out is whether what protection you have under forty A_ for the pre-existing non-conforming use and how far that goes. So is there has there been historically painting of vehicles there just not in a spray booth? Has there been body work? [Speaker 4] (11:05 - 11:06) What what [Speaker 1] (11:06 - 11:10) Well, I only have anecdotal. I don't have, [Speaker 1] (11:10 - 11:12) I can't speak firsthand to the approval, [Speaker 1] (11:13 - 11:18) but let me just say to you that with respect to the criteria for what we seek, [Speaker 1] (11:18 - 11:25) I'll fall back on my Jesuit training and philosophy. [Speaker 1] (11:25 - 11:30) The essence of what we're talking about in that definition is motor vehicle repairs. [Speaker 1] (11:31 - 11:44) That that's that's why it's substantially the same use and substantially the same manner What we're asking about is an ancillary use another use an auxiliary use and that is to do body work to do body work [Speaker 1] (11:45 - 11:47) Safely and to do it in accordance with the current requirements. [Speaker 1] (11:48 - 11:48) You need a [Speaker 1] (11:49 - 11:51) a configuration called a spray booth. [Speaker 1] (11:52 - 11:56) And those are regulated by other authorities. [Speaker 1] (11:57 - 11:59) But in terms of the nature of what we're seeking, [Speaker 1] (11:59 - 12:05) we're just seeking a further extension of what we believe has been the use, continues to be the use. [Speaker 1] (12:07 - 12:14) was once the use, maybe not the approval of this board or other boards because it dates back so far. [Speaker 1] (12:14 - 12:17) But to have a spray booth in this current environment, [Speaker 1] (12:18 - 12:25) you have to have one that satisfies the requirements of the state and the federal government with respect to the environment. [Speaker 1] (12:25 - 12:36) The manufacturers who make them build them with that in mind so they satisfy all of those. So we see this as offering another service. [Speaker 1] (12:37 - 12:52) That relates to motor vehicles and that's why I read the definition which clearly indicates that when it says fenders and bumpers and other parts of vehicles that that's body work and that's how it's defined in your zone ordinance. [Speaker 1] (12:53 - 13:02) What we seek is the approval of the board that that activity is not substantially more detrimental in its effect on the neighborhood and I don't believe that it is. [Speaker 4] (13:06 - 13:11) So your position is that it's an accessory use that's already going on there, and you're looking to expand that accessory [Speaker 1] (13:11 - 13:16) That is that I think it's an extension of the use that's there. [Speaker 1] (13:16 - 13:19) Yes, but I think we satisfy the criteria for that. [Speaker 2] (13:31 - 13:34) So as far as the way, you're asking for two. [Speaker 2] (13:35 - 13:48) Things one is the continued use and the other is the spray booth. Do you need any relief for the continued use if the continued use is is that just a finding that it's continued use would you [Speaker 4] (13:48 - 13:48) If [Speaker 2] (13:48 - 13:48) agree like [Speaker 4] (13:48 - 13:49) if [Speaker 2] (13:49 - 13:50) that's not a new [Speaker 4] (13:50 - 13:51) And that's just what I was [Speaker 2] (13:51 - 13:51) special [Speaker 4] (13:51 - 13:51) thinking. [Speaker 2] (13:51 - 13:54) permit like because you can't get a special permit for for this use in this location. [Speaker 4] (13:54 - 13:57) You can't it's the answer is it would be a variance because it's no [Speaker 2] (13:58 - 13:58) Right. [Speaker 4] (13:58 - 13:59) I'm a table of principle uses [Speaker 4] (14:00 - 14:12) But an accessory use is permitted under our by-law if it's customary and incidental to the principal use, or if there's protection of the use. [Speaker 4] (14:13 - 14:20) 40A lets you expand a pre-existing non-conforming structure. We've been familiar with that. [Speaker 2] (14:20 - 14:20) Right. [Speaker 4] (14:20 - 14:27) And same thing with use if it's, my understanding is if it's customary and incidental. [Speaker 4] (14:28 - 14:41) So, the I think the analysis is if the use that was proposed was an expansion of the use such that it would become an additional principal use, [Speaker 4] (14:42 - 14:53) then the analysis would be okay can we grant relief there, our bylaws says no. So if I heard that if I heard that [Speaker 4] (14:53 - 14:57) it was gonna be eighty percent occupied by this paint booth [Speaker 4] (14:58 - 15:03) for the work and now the mechanical work was gonna be twenty [Speaker 2] (15:03 - 15:03) The [Speaker 4] (15:03 - 15:03) percent [Speaker 2] (15:03 - 15:04) secondary, yeah, [Speaker 4] (15:04 - 15:04) and [Speaker 2] (15:04 - 15:04) yeah. [Speaker 4] (15:04 - 15:16) that was gonna now be accessory. We had it flipping. I would say that would be a new principal use. So I I'd love to know just how much if if there's a a square footage of how much space the [Speaker 4] (15:17 - 15:19) Paint Booth is going to occupy as part of the premises. [Speaker 1] (15:20 - 15:23) I think the buildings are about five thousand gross square feet. [Speaker 5] (15:23 - 15:23) Just all around. [Speaker 1] (15:24 - 15:24) Yeah. [Speaker 5] (15:24 - 15:26) Yes, the booth could occupy less than a thousand. [Speaker 1] (15:26 - 15:28) Right, and I was going to say that the specifications [Speaker 4] (15:28 - 15:28) Right, [Speaker 1] (15:28 - 15:28) I [Speaker 4] (15:28 - 15:29) sorry. [Speaker 1] (15:29 - 15:30) saw show booths to [Speaker 4] (15:30 - 15:30) So [Speaker 1] (15:30 - 15:30) be that [Speaker 4] (15:30 - 15:30) they passed [Speaker 1] (15:30 - 15:31) about that size. [Speaker 4] (15:31 - 15:38) that part of the analysis that I would see that it's not clearly a new principal use because it's a dominant use. [Speaker 2] (15:39 - 15:46) And in number nine for for our zoning bylaw, we have motor vehicle general and body repair under the same use. [Speaker 4] (15:53 - 15:59) Yeah, we we had I'm sure any of the remembers years ago we had a lot of uh a couple of different [Speaker 4] (15:59 - 16:02) cases with this light service. [Speaker 6] (16:02 - 16:03) Mm-hmm. [Speaker 4] (16:03 - 16:03) You remember those we [Speaker 2] (16:03 - 16:03) Yeah, [Speaker 4] (16:03 - 16:04) had? [Speaker 2] (16:04 - 16:06) light service is its own use though, where [Speaker 5] (16:06 - 16:06) Calories [Speaker 2] (16:06 - 16:06) I mean, you [Speaker 5] (16:06 - 16:06) is. [Speaker 1] (16:06 - 16:07) can miss the bat. [Speaker 2] (16:07 - 16:07) Yeah. [Speaker 4] (16:07 - 16:08) It was his property. [Speaker 2] (16:08 - 16:09) It's property. [Speaker 2] (16:09 - 16:13) But that's light service, whereas we ha this is not light service. This is this is pre [Speaker 4] (16:13 - 16:13) Right. [Speaker 2] (16:13 - 16:16) -existing auto repair shop without [Speaker 4] (16:16 - 16:16) Yep. [Speaker 2] (16:16 - 16:16) a doubt, [Speaker 4] (16:16 - 16:16) Mm [Speaker 2] (16:16 - 16:21) and that's under number nine, and that does include in our bylaw body repair as part of that. [Speaker 4] (16:21 - 16:21) -hmm. [Speaker 7] (16:22 - 16:22) Not you. [Speaker 2] (16:22 - 16:25) Is that where the spray booth is going to be in the existing? [Speaker 1] (16:25 - 16:26) It's in [Speaker 2] (16:26 - 16:26) Yeah. [Speaker 1] (16:26 - 16:27) inside. It's It's in inside. [Speaker 5] (16:27 - 16:28) it's in congress [Speaker 1] (16:28 - 16:29) Since everything's inside the existing [Speaker 2] (16:29 - 16:29) Oh, 40 [Speaker 1] (16:29 - 16:30) building. [Speaker 2] (16:30 - 16:31) Essex Street. [Speaker 5] (16:31 - 16:32) Correct. The big building. [Speaker 1] (16:32 - 16:37) It's in congress to think that you can do repair work and not like paint the car. What are you going to do? [Speaker 4] (16:37 - 16:38) It's it's what? [Speaker 1] (16:38 - 16:40) It's in congress that you can do. [Speaker 5] (16:40 - 16:44) You can repair the car, fix the dents, and then you can leave it unpainted. [Speaker 2] (16:44 - 16:46) Well a lot of repair shops aren't auto body shops. [Speaker 4] (16:46 - 16:46) Right, [Speaker 2] (16:46 - 16:47) I mean you [Speaker 4] (16:47 - 16:47) right, [Speaker 2] (16:47 - 16:47) have to because go to a special [Speaker 4] (16:47 - 16:47) there's [Speaker 2] (16:47 - 16:48) auto [Speaker 4] (16:48 - 16:48) right. [Speaker 2] (16:48 - 16:49) body shop to get to get body work [Speaker 4] (16:49 - 16:58) Not everybody does body work, and that's one of the reasons I'm sure they're looking to expand. It's become a smaller volume [Speaker 5] (16:58 - 16:58) It's a hilarity [Speaker 4] (16:58 - 17:01) of businesses that are doing the body work. [Speaker 4] (17:02 - 17:05) Because there's a lot more that's involved than they had Right. recently. [Speaker 5] (17:05 - 17:07) It's like putting a dry cleaner in and it's [Speaker 4] (17:07 - 17:07) Exactly. [Speaker 5] (17:07 - 17:13) going to dry clean on the site as opposed to drop off and you're all concerned about the environmental issues. [Speaker 4] (17:13 - 17:14) Yep. Right. [Speaker 5] (17:14 - 17:16) To elaborate on what you said about the use before, [Speaker 5] (17:17 - 17:24) so in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, a spray booth was a room that somebody built with an exhaust fan that shot everything outside. [Speaker 4] (17:24 - 17:25) I remember them well. [Speaker 5] (17:26 - 17:29) So when you fix the car back then, if it was a police car, [Speaker 5] (17:29 - 17:31) you took the fender off, you painted it. [Speaker 5] (17:31 - 17:33) It was done in the oil. It didn't match. [Speaker 5] (17:33 - 17:52) You told him he ain't got it. Today the painting is so far advanced is 5,000 colors. So you need this high-tech booth which everything that Attorney Vitale said encapsulates the filter system and all of that stuff. So back when Chavez sold John Rowley a painting of cars or Bob Wilson fixed a truck, [Speaker 5] (17:52 - 17:53) there was no protection. [Speaker 5] (17:53 - 17:54) But the booth. [Speaker 4] (17:54 - 17:58) But that's because I are you do you personally know have you observed that he [Speaker 4] (17:58 - 18:00) Was in the building painting cars [Speaker 5] (18:00 - 18:02) Yes, Bob Wilson, [Speaker 5] (18:02 - 18:02) yes. [Speaker 5] (18:02 - 18:03) John Lally unfortunately, [Speaker 5] (18:03 - 18:04) no. [Speaker 4] (18:04 - 18:05) Okay [Speaker 5] (18:05 - 18:07) So in 1986, [Speaker 5] (18:07 - 18:09) Swampscott High School graduate, [Speaker 5] (18:09 - 18:10) my car got smashed up. [Speaker 5] (18:11 - 18:13) Lally's towing came to the police and towed it away. [Speaker 5] (18:13 - 18:14) This is before I had my own business. [Speaker 5] (18:14 - 18:16) They brought it to their shop. [Speaker 5] (18:16 - 18:18) They repaired it. It was a 1986 iROCK. [Speaker 5] (18:19 - 18:21) They fixed it, gave it back to me. They charged me insurance money. [Speaker 5] (18:21 - 18:22) So yes, [Speaker 5] (18:22 - 18:25) they fixed cars in the 80s. Did they have a proper spray booth? [Speaker 4] (18:26 - 18:32) I I'm more concerned with with what you said that there the use was ongoing at that time and [Speaker 2] (18:32 - 18:33) But I don't, [Speaker 4] (18:33 - 18:33) it sounds [Speaker 2] (18:33 - 18:38) but the use wasn't, the use isn't currently ongoing and it hasn't been for years. [Speaker 4] (18:38 - 18:40) Well you can you can abandon a use [Speaker 2] (18:40 - 18:41) You you can abandon a use. [Speaker 4] (18:41 - 18:42) know you have two years of non-use [Speaker 2] (18:42 - 18:43) Okay. [Speaker 5] (18:43 - 18:47) But Bob Wilson always operated, he only fixed cars for friends, [Speaker 5] (18:47 - 18:48) he only charged people very little. [Speaker 5] (18:49 - 18:51) It was time for Bob Wilson to retire, so we bought the business. [Speaker 5] (18:52 - 18:58) We put a tenant in there who is going to repair cars, fix cars and sell tires. Unfortunately he failed. [Speaker 5] (18:59 - 19:05) So now here we are back with a building that we paid a lot of money for, my sister and I and my family, and we're looking to rent it. [Speaker 5] (19:06 - 19:08) Everyone who's come to us to rent it wants to be in the body business. [Speaker 5] (19:09 - 19:17) Also I'd like to note that less than a half a mile away is a giant body shop thanks to the gas station right across from the school. [Speaker 5] (19:18 - 19:20) It's in this area. It's nothing [Speaker 2] (19:20 - 19:20) Yeah, there's a collision, [Speaker 5] (19:20 - 19:21) crazy out [Speaker 2] (19:21 - 19:21) a [Speaker 5] (19:21 - 19:21) of the [Speaker 2] (19:21 - 19:21) swampscot [Speaker 5] (19:21 - 19:21) ordinary. [Speaker 2] (19:21 - 19:22) collision is right [Speaker 5] (19:22 - 19:22) Right, [Speaker 2] (19:22 - 19:23) there. [Speaker 5] (19:23 - 19:23) right there. [Speaker 2] (19:23 - 19:23) And [Speaker 5] (19:23 - 19:23) You see [Speaker 2] (19:23 - 19:24) they're by [Speaker 5] (19:24 - 19:24) the man [Speaker 2] (19:24 - 19:24) shop. [Speaker 5] (19:24 - 19:35) is he is and he has all the updated stuff just like we will, but we're having a hard time finding the tenant to continue the existing use, so we're asking to use the body shop for the high-tech spray booth, [Speaker 5] (19:35 - 19:36) it protects everybody. [Speaker 2] (19:36 - 19:40) So are you close to the two years on the use or are you [Speaker 5] (19:40 - 19:40) No, [Speaker 2] (19:40 - 19:40) is [Speaker 5] (19:40 - 19:40) we've already [Speaker 2] (19:40 - 19:40) that [Speaker 5] (19:40 - 19:41) okay. we've never stopped using it. [Speaker 2] (19:41 - 19:42) Okay. [Speaker 5] (19:42 - 19:43) It's being used right now. [Speaker 2] (19:43 - 19:43) Okay. [Speaker 2] (19:47 - 19:47) Is anybody else, [Speaker 4] (19:47 - 19:47) Well, [Speaker 2] (19:47 - 19:48) I'm not sure [Speaker 4] (19:48 - 19:48) I think [Speaker 2] (19:48 - 19:48) if you have [Speaker 4] (19:48 - 19:48) I [Speaker 2] (19:48 - 19:48) any questions. [Speaker 4] (19:48 - 19:51) think it'd be I think it'd be interesting to hear if any of the neighbors have [Speaker 2] (19:51 - 19:51) Yeah. [Speaker 4] (19:51 - 19:54) observed then they may have observations or [Speaker 2] (20:00 - 20:00) Alright, [Speaker 1] (20:00 - 20:00) in [Speaker 2] (20:00 - 20:00) does [Speaker 1] (20:00 - 20:00) application. [Speaker 2] (20:00 - 20:04) anybody would anybody like to speak? Just um state your name and address please. [Speaker 3] (20:05 - 20:05) My name is Celia. [Speaker 2] (20:05 - 20:06) Oh, you're get a microphone. [Speaker 4] (20:06 - 20:09) Nineteen Essex Street. Um [Speaker 4] (20:09 - 20:25) I would like to attack this from a little bit different angle from an environmental one. So um I'm going to read you some things. Um Essex Street is already a corridor for particulate matter pollution because it's a busy street and also a truck route even though not designated as one. [Speaker 4] (20:25 - 20:36) This is the same size particle pollution as can be generated by a car spray paint booth and of the size most hazardous to human health. I am appealing for not adding more possible pollution to our street. [Speaker 4] (20:36 - 20:43) three. Whatever pollution control system is installed for the filtration ventilation for the paint spray booth, [Speaker 4] (20:43 - 20:49) how will we know if it is malfunctioning and or not complying with EPA standards for 98% collection of emissions? [Speaker 4] (20:50 - 20:52) They may qualify for a permit exemption, [Speaker 4] (20:52 - 21:03) but even with a permit exemption there are still permit exemption requirements that must still demonstrate compliance as outlined in the exemption permit with detailed monthly records. [Speaker 4] (21:03 - 21:06) But they won't be required to submit those reports to the DEP, [Speaker 4] (21:07 - 21:08) which will no longer have authority. [Speaker 4] (21:09 - 21:17) The only thing we can do is report odors or dust to the Board of Health, but by then it's too late. We will be the guinea pigs for any pollution violation, [Speaker 4] (21:17 - 21:30) and also some volatile organic gases are odorless, like benzene, which is a known human carcinogen and produced in a spray paint booth. It is also important to remember that odors are not just odors. If you smell something, [Speaker 4] (21:30 - 21:35) thing you are inhaling its particles or gases whatever size they may be. [Speaker 4] (21:35 - 21:41) I do not garden in the front of my property when traffic is thick because if I do and I'm there long enough I start to feel sick. [Speaker 4] (21:42 - 21:56) Also I don't open windows at the front of my home as I would soon be able to run a finger across a piece of furniture and it would come up black. This is from traffic fumes the products of combustion of gasoline and diesel fuel again the same size of particle that is [Speaker 4] (21:56 - 22:02) part of the pollutants from an auto or spray paint booth, both of which can contribute to early death for millions of Americans. [Speaker 4] (22:03 - 22:17) I think we should also know prior to any decision exactly who the manufacturer is and what the model number is for the filtration and volatile organic gases like benzene, and if it has a gas scrubber like charcoal. [Speaker 4] (22:17 - 22:22) Volatile organic gases are produced by products used in a car spray paint booth. [Speaker 4] (22:23 - 22:28) Can we please put people in front of more possible pollution on our street? We have more traffic, [Speaker 4] (22:28 - 22:38) a REO place, and soon another eight residential units directly across from 40 Essex Street which will add more traffic and children already playing on two sides of the property. [Speaker 4] (22:38 - 23:05) I'm hoping you will protect us from more possible harm to our health. I am hoping you will look out for us in a preventative precautionary way similar to the European Union's policy called the precautionary principle which I've admired for many years. The EU's precautionary principle is a policy that allows for the taking of preventative action in the face of potential risk to human health, animal or plant health or the environment. It enables authorities to implement provisional risk management [Speaker 4] (23:05 - 23:14) management measurements such as restricting products or halting certain activities when there are reasonable grounds for concern that potential harm could occur. [Speaker 4] (23:14 - 23:21) Um so I'm asking you not to add this potential burden to our neighbourhood. And again, [Speaker 4] (23:22 - 23:49) Those detailed monthly records have to be kept, but the D_E_P_ doesn't receive them, they don't have the authority to receive them. The Board of Health could ask for them, but is the Board of Health gonna ask for those detailed monthly record records every month, or are they just going to look into it when one of us complains about an odour. And again, some of these odours are odourless and we won't even know if we're breathing them. So thank you. And thank you for the abutters' notice too. [Speaker 2] (23:51 - 23:52) Does anybody else [Speaker 1] (23:52 - 23:52) I [Speaker 2] (23:52 - 23:52) have? [Speaker 1] (23:52 - 23:54) just have some thoughts on this. [Speaker 2] (23:54 - 23:54) Yeah, yeah. [Speaker 1] (23:54 - 24:05) Just personally I see our jurisdiction as we don't have the jurisdiction to give relief and give a special permit for a new use here. [Speaker 1] (24:05 - 24:16) I see our jurisdiction as to make a finding as to whether or not the existing accessory use is present. [Speaker 1] (24:17 - 24:24) and if the proposed use is within that use and not becoming a new principal use. [Speaker 1] (24:25 - 24:27) I don't know that we in terms of the [Speaker 2] (24:27 - 24:27) it's Yeah. [Speaker 1] (24:27 - 24:34) we can't say okay, you're not doing it, you can do it. I don't think that's what we have jurisdiction to do, I'm being ordinary. [Speaker 2] (24:35 - 24:39) They're currently not doing it, because that's why no one wants to rent the space, 'cause there's not the space to do it. So they're not doing [Speaker 1] (24:39 - 24:39) Well they [Speaker 2] (24:39 - 24:39) it, [Speaker 1] (24:39 - 24:39) don't [Speaker 2] (24:39 - 24:39) but [Speaker 1] (24:39 - 24:45) have a paint booth, they don't have a paint booth. The question is is the I see a two-fold. First, [Speaker 1] (24:45 - 25:08) Is there currently body repair being conducted at the property in painting and then if so is the addition of the paint booth still an accessory use, an expansion of that accessory use, [Speaker 1] (25:08 - 25:12) but not such an expansion as to become a new principal use? [Speaker 1] (25:12 - 25:16) That's how what I see our analysis of on this. [Speaker 2] (25:17 - 25:19) Yeah, I mean I definitely see it as a new [Speaker 2] (25:20 - 25:23) a new use in that it's not currently. [Speaker 1] (25:23 - 25:24) Yeah, [Speaker 2] (25:24 - 25:24) And [Speaker 1] (25:24 - 25:24) if so they [Speaker 2] (25:24 - 25:24) it can't [Speaker 1] (25:24 - 25:24) would just [Speaker 2] (25:24 - 25:26) legally be used as it, 'cause they don't have the right equipment. So [Speaker 1] (25:26 - 25:26) Right, [Speaker 2] (25:26 - 25:27) this can't [Speaker 1] (25:27 - 25:27) if it [Speaker 2] (25:27 - 25:31) be used now. So we know that the use the use ended at some point. [Speaker 1] (25:32 - 25:32) Well, [Speaker 1] (25:32 - 25:38) no no, but I I see it a little differently. I see it that the use doesn't need to be made [Speaker 1] (25:39 - 25:48) Foy. So let's say back in the 1990s they had a bay that was dedicated to painting cars. [Speaker 1] (25:49 - 25:54) Okay, it didn't have a lift in it for mechanical repairs, [Speaker 1] (25:54 - 25:57) it was just dedicated. And there's never been a booth in the property, [Speaker 1] (25:57 - 26:00) but they were continuously painting cars. [Speaker 1] (26:02 - 26:15) Maybe that slowed down a bit. Maybe they they if but if there was that use that was not abandoned for a consistent for a two-year period then it continues and I think it's a valid accessory use, [Speaker 1] (26:15 - 26:17) my opinion. [Speaker 1] (26:19 - 26:25) And that's the way I understood the presentation. [Speaker 1] (26:26 - 26:28) I d I d you know if if if I [Speaker 2] (26:28 - 26:29) And then well [Speaker 1] (26:29 - 26:29) could get [Speaker 2] (26:29 - 26:36) then if we argue if the argument is that it ha that it has they have law let's just say that use hasn't we it has been suspended for more than two years, [Speaker 1] (26:36 - 26:36) Yep. [Speaker 2] (26:36 - 26:46) then the question is is this um in a similar to you know are you are you creating a new nonconformity is this use [Speaker 2] (26:47 - 26:50) substantially more detrimental than the one use that has continued. [Speaker 1] (26:50 - 26:57) I don't think that's the analysis. I don't think it's a substantially more detrimental analysis because that's if we were granting a special permit. [Speaker 1] (26:57 - 26:59) We don't have authority to grant a special permit. [Speaker 1] (26:59 - 27:08) I see we have a very narrow window just to make a finding or not make a finding that there's been this continuous accessory use. [Speaker 1] (27:08 - 27:11) So I had a case at the appeals court before, accessory use. [Speaker 1] (27:12 - 27:21) Simmons v. Zoning Board of Newburyport, and my client had horses on a residential lot right next to the Energex hospital, [Speaker 1] (27:21 - 27:37) and the building inspector wanted a well at first it was a request that they remove them and we argued that they were kept as pets and it was an accessory use even though they occupied an acre of the property and the house was on a small piece of it. [Speaker 1] (27:37 - 27:43) And the appeals court agreed that they were kept as pets and it was an accessory use. [Speaker 1] (27:44 - 28:01) And it's the same analysis that I see here that the question is, are they going to prove that it's, it's accessory, that it's incidental and related thereto, and that it hasn't been abandoned, [Speaker 1] (28:01 - 28:03) that it was, there was been a continuous. [Speaker 1] (28:04 - 28:20) use for body work over the entire period of time up to today. It doesn't mean that they have to be painting a car every day. It can be very intermittent in my mind, but it's that's a question for the for the board to make that finding. [Speaker 1] (28:21 - 28:27) And you know reasonable minds absolutely can differ as to whether or not they make that, they can prove that. [Speaker 1] (28:28 - 28:33) What I what I was going to say as to what I would want to put in for evidence if I were [Speaker 1] (28:33 - 28:50) uh the petitioner I'd want to go to my paint supplier and get the records that show look once a month we were getting paint dropped off here for the past 30 years you know that would be persuasive [Speaker 5] (28:50 - 28:50) So you're saying [Speaker 1] (28:50 - 28:50) to me [Speaker 5] (28:50 - 28:55) that really it's, you know, we're listening to the neighbors, [Speaker 5] (28:55 - 29:00) but the real issue is that we don't have enough material to make this decision. [Speaker 5] (29:01 - 29:06) Now, we need, based on your analysis, you're putting it back on the petitioner to say, [Speaker 5] (29:07 - 29:09) give me some proof. [Speaker 1] (29:09 - 29:10) Well, we have some. [Speaker 1] (29:10 - 29:11) We have testimony. [Speaker 1] (29:12 - 29:13) I don't know that it's enough. [Speaker 1] (29:13 - 29:14) You know, [Speaker 2] (29:14 - 29:14) Well, [Speaker 1] (29:14 - 29:17) you heard from 1986 that you got your car painted there, [Speaker 1] (29:17 - 29:20) that you observed them doing painting. [Speaker 1] (29:21 - 29:22) It would be a lot stronger. [Speaker 1] (29:23 - 29:28) And that's what everybody gets their paint from. [Speaker 1] (29:28 - 29:30) The auto, it's [Speaker 5] (29:30 - 29:30) Right. [Speaker 1] (29:30 - 29:34) it's it's a they get their paint from the supplier for the auto paints. [Speaker 5] (29:34 - 29:36) So I guess the question is [Speaker 1] (29:36 - 29:36) And [Speaker 5] (29:36 - 29:36) the city. [Speaker 1] (29:36 - 29:46) it could also be body parts to it could be getting showing invoices that show look we were getting here's a bumper here's a fender. [Speaker 5] (29:46 - 29:49) But I think that goes back to what we were saying earlier where if [Speaker 1] (29:56 - 30:00) That's that's a good point that it doesn't necessarily prove that but but the [Speaker 3] (30:00 - 30:02) But the paint order is something like, so I [Speaker 1] (30:02 - 30:03) paint order would yeah I understand that [Speaker 3] (30:03 - 30:06) guess the question is, would [Speaker 1] (30:06 - 30:06) or parts for or [Speaker 3] (30:06 - 30:09) the petitioner, can the petitioner produce some documentation? [Speaker 1] (30:09 - 30:10) the equipment yeah [Speaker 1] (30:10 - 30:13) Show that you've got paint guns. [Speaker 4] (30:13 - 30:14) Can I have some paint? [Speaker 4] (30:14 - 30:33) So can I don't know the paint laws, but can you paint vehicles or parts without a paint booth? Meaning to the extent that prior tenants have been painting parts before today, [Speaker 4] (30:33 - 30:37) is it in compliance with DEP or EPA or whatever? [Speaker 4] (30:40 - 30:43) You can that's that's my question you can paint them with a spray can [Speaker 5] (30:43 - 30:44) Right now we brush. [Speaker 4] (30:44 - 30:45) You brush okay [Speaker 5] (30:45 - 30:49) There's dumps, many dumpsters and then thousands of dumpsters that get painted. [Speaker 5] (30:49 - 30:52) I can show hundreds of receipts for the paint, [Speaker 5] (30:52 - 30:54) no problem. But it's all brushed. [Speaker 4] (30:54 - 30:55) Okay, [Speaker 5] (30:55 - 30:55) We [Speaker 4] (30:55 - 30:55) so [Speaker 5] (30:55 - 30:55) don't spray. [Speaker 4] (30:55 - 30:55) so [Speaker 1] (30:55 - 30:56) Oh, [Speaker 4] (30:56 - 30:56) that's [Speaker 1] (30:56 - 31:02) painting dumpsters, not vehicles. I don't know that that's auto, it's painting, it's accessory use. [Speaker 5] (31:03 - 31:03) Correct. [Speaker 1] (31:03 - 31:05) But I think the real key here, [Speaker 1] (31:05 - 31:05) Well, if [Speaker 5] (31:05 - 31:09) did I personally spray any cars? No, I've never lied to the board. [Speaker 5] (31:10 - 31:11) Did the tenant I had in there? [Speaker 5] (31:11 - 31:12) Yes. [Speaker 5] (31:13 - 31:14) Did Bob Wilson? [Speaker 5] (31:14 - 31:16) Yes. Did John Lowley? Yes. [Speaker 1] (31:16 - 31:16) I Right. [Speaker 5] (31:16 - 31:17) can't get every system. [Speaker 1] (31:18 - 31:24) So if you knew who his paint supplier was and you could go to them and get the paint records, [Speaker 1] (31:24 - 31:25) that would be very persuasive. [Speaker 3] (31:26 - 31:30) And I think the reason we advertise [Speaker 3] (31:31 - 31:36) And put the words in there, we want to do it the right way. We want to do it in conformity with [Speaker 1] (31:36 - 31:36) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (31:36 - 31:40) what the DEP says and the EPA statute what the fire department said. [Speaker 3] (31:40 - 31:51) So we ask, we're asking to formalize something that as I indicated in past years people have a different view of how to do some of those things. [Speaker 3] (31:51 - 31:59) We want to do it right. So the request was to allow us to continue to do that activity with a spray booth. A [Speaker 1] (31:59 - 32:00) Right, and I think [Speaker 3] (32:00 - 32:00) spray booth [Speaker 1] (32:00 - 32:00) we have the authority. [Speaker 3] (32:00 - 32:02) is a technical, [Speaker 3] (32:02 - 32:04) it's a rule essentially. [Speaker 1] (32:05 - 32:14) Yeah, I understand what the spray booth is, but I think we have to, I see that we have [Speaker 1] (32:15 - 32:17) authority just to do it as an accessory use. [Speaker 3] (32:17 - 32:18) Right. [Speaker 3] (32:18 - 32:23) The methodology of how you're going to paint the cars isn't what's at issue here. It's whether you've been painting the cars. [Speaker 1] (32:23 - 32:24) Yeah, even if it wasn't [Speaker 3] (32:24 - 32:24) Even [Speaker 1] (32:24 - 32:25) already [Speaker 3] (32:25 - 32:27) if you're compliant. painting it with your tongue, you know. [Speaker 1] (32:27 - 32:29) Is that enough to trigger 40A protection? [Speaker 4] (32:29 - 32:42) So So that was, that kind of, my question kind of goes to the point you're making right now. Is there any documentation that the use of spray cans or paint brushing in vehicles? [Speaker 4] (32:42 - 32:53) In the past, I guess, two years is there rec would there be records of that from anybody? I guess wouldn't wouldn't records of that type of painting check the box you're talking about, Mark? [Speaker 1] (32:53 - 32:54) Yeah, if if if receipts [Speaker 3] (32:54 - 32:57) Receipts for the work, receipts for the work done, [Speaker 3] (32:57 - 32:58) receipts from the supplier. [Speaker 1] (32:58 - 33:04) showing that you had the purchase of paint guns and they use compressors typically if they're using a Well, body [Speaker 3] (33:04 - 33:05) or if you had [Speaker 1] (33:05 - 33:05) works [Speaker 3] (33:05 - 33:08) a receipt for the guy, I painted your car, [Speaker 1] (33:08 - 33:08) Yeah, [Speaker 3] (33:08 - 33:08) I painted your car. [Speaker 1] (33:08 - 33:10) yeah customers receipts [Speaker 1] (33:11 - 33:13) Any of that would be persuasive to me [Speaker 3] (33:13 - 33:14) Because in reality [Speaker 1] (33:14 - 33:15) that there's evidence of the use. [Speaker 3] (33:15 - 33:20) the contamination issue is it's not our jurisdiction, you know. [Speaker 1] (33:20 - 33:22) We can't say if we don't think, [Speaker 3] (33:22 - 33:22) Right. [Speaker 1] (33:22 - 33:23) so let's say it's been abandoned, [Speaker 1] (33:24 - 33:31) they can't prove it and they say well we want we want relief, we want a special permit to start doing that or to renew it and start [Speaker 3] (33:31 - 33:31) Yeah, [Speaker 1] (33:31 - 33:31) after [Speaker 3] (33:31 - 33:31) but that, [Speaker 1] (33:31 - 33:32) two [Speaker 3] (33:32 - 33:32) but, [Speaker 1] (33:32 - 33:32) year abandonment, [Speaker 3] (33:32 - 33:32) but, but, [Speaker 1] (33:32 - 33:32) we [Speaker 3] (33:32 - 33:33) okay, [Speaker 1] (33:33 - 33:34) don't have authority to do it. [Speaker 3] (33:34 - 33:36) but I was going to say we didn't have the authority to. [Speaker 3] (33:37 - 33:38) To say, you [Speaker 1] (33:38 - 33:38) A [Speaker 3] (33:38 - 33:38) know, [Speaker 1] (33:38 - 33:38) separate [Speaker 3] (33:38 - 33:39) it's [Speaker 1] (33:39 - 33:39) principal use. [Speaker 3] (33:39 - 33:46) like the issuance of a building permit. It's not us, it's the building department. [Speaker 3] (33:46 - 33:49) We just grant the permit, then you gotta comply, and that's [Speaker 1] (33:49 - 33:49) Got to comply [Speaker 3] (33:49 - 33:49) completely, [Speaker 1] (33:49 - 33:50) with [Speaker 3] (33:50 - 33:50) it's not [Speaker 1] (33:50 - 33:50) everything [Speaker 3] (33:50 - 33:50) our jurisdiction. [Speaker 1] (33:50 - 33:51) on the, we, [Speaker 4] (33:51 - 33:51) Yeah, [Speaker 1] (33:51 - 33:51) yeah. [Speaker 4] (33:51 - 33:56) not and not our building commissioner did. [Speaker 6] (33:57 - 34:01) present a, you know, a very lengthy analysis of all the different [Speaker 1] (34:01 - 34:01) Requirements, [Speaker 6] (34:01 - 34:01) things, requirements [Speaker 1] (34:01 - 34:02) requirements. [Speaker 6] (34:02 - 34:19) that would need to be met if this was approved, um the the um you know, all the updates to the code and everything like that, which I'm sure you well aware of and that would that would not be our jurisdiction, that would be something we would that would, our building commissioner um would enforce at [Speaker 1] (34:19 - 34:19) Yep. [Speaker 6] (34:19 - 34:23) that point. But um alright did any of the other um [Speaker 5] (34:25 - 34:34) So, uh Charlie Patcio's uh 130 Atlantic Avenue, Swampscott. Um I'm also the chair of the Swampscott Housing Authority and the largest abutter to the parcel. [Speaker 5] (34:35 - 34:43) And you might recall some time back the housing authority had verbally entered into an agreement to try to acquire the parcel to develop it into housing. [Speaker 3] (34:44 - 34:51) And we worked with the state and the determination was that it wasn't a suitable site for us to continue pursuing it for housing. [Speaker 3] (34:52 - 34:55) At that particular time, I had walked the property, [Speaker 3] (34:56 - 34:59) I had gone inside the building and in the one corner, [Speaker 3] (34:59 - 35:01) and I hope this helps, [Speaker 3] (35:01 - 35:09) in one corner in the back I remember where they used to paint the cars and the reason I remember that was because [Speaker 3] (35:10 - 35:27) Ricky Wilson was my next door neighbor on Greenwood Avenue and in a snowstorm he hit the side of my car and so he said I'll fix it down at the garage and so they brought it down there they fixed the rear quarter they popped out the dent and they they painted it it wasn't a big job but it got done there [Speaker 7] (35:29 - 35:40) As far as the Housing Authority is concerned, when we had looked at the property and we had asked for some time to evaluate it, we had done some environmental testing on the site, [Speaker 7] (35:41 - 35:42) record search wise, [Speaker 7] (35:42 - 35:44) we hadn't found anything that was troubling to us. [Speaker 7] (35:46 - 35:51) With what I just heard about the spray booth and where they're placing it, [Speaker 7] (35:51 - 35:56) I don't think the Housing Authority has any issues with that type of filtration, [Speaker 7] (35:56 - 36:09) especially if those extra measures of the Health Department and other agencies of the town which have the authority to inspect and supervise something like this, the Housing Authority is not opposed to it. [Speaker 7] (36:11 - 36:15) So we're happy to send that in writing to you if that would be helpful. [Speaker 7] (36:15 - 36:22) And going back to my knowledge of John Lally. [Speaker 7] (36:23 - 36:25) I came to town in early 1990, [Speaker 7] (36:25 - 36:28) and I like old cars, [Speaker 7] (36:28 - 36:29) and so Mr. [Speaker 7] (36:29 - 36:29) Lally, [Speaker 7] (36:29 - 36:32) John Lally, had parts for Model A's in there, [Speaker 7] (36:32 - 36:37) and I had asked him one time what that stuff was that he had in the corner. [Speaker 7] (36:37 - 36:37) He said, [Speaker 7] (36:37 - 36:42) well, we used to use lead when we fixed the cars, the dents, so we used to heat up lead, [Speaker 7] (36:42 - 36:45) and we'd put lead applications on it. [Speaker 7] (36:45 - 36:48) And there was pictures, unfortunately I'm sure they're gone now, [Speaker 7] (36:48 - 36:50) of him working on old cars, [Speaker 7] (36:50 - 36:52) 30s and 40s and 50s. [Speaker 7] (36:51 - 37:00) these and painting them. I don't know exactly how they did it but I saw pictures of it and I saw evidence of where it was and I know they fixed my car in there. [Speaker 7] (37:01 - 37:17) It certainly wasn't a wreck but it was some body damage there so I know it was done for us and that was 1994, 95 when that work was done and I knew where the car was because I saw it when it was getting fixed in the corner. [Speaker 7] (37:19 - 37:20) I hope that helps. [Speaker 1] (37:21 - 37:26) It helps, I think, except for the question of abandonment the last couple years. [Speaker 1] (37:26 - 37:27) There is some testimony of that. [Speaker 8] (37:34 - 37:38) Hi, my name is Annie Pulaski. I live around the block on Beach Avenue. [Speaker 8] (37:39 - 38:03) We've lived there for over twenty years. I actually used to get my car fixed at Lally's and I was always amazed that for how many bays that building has he only had one working, which was the one right next to the office. So those other two or three, whatever it on the side, like weren't being used. I've never ex like seen any [Speaker 8] (38:02 - 38:17) any body work being done i've never seen any painting i'm just personally in the time that i've lived there i've gotten my brakes done i've gotten the oil changes i've gotten all that kind of stuff but i've never seen auto body repair done [Speaker 1] (38:17 - 38:17) When [Speaker 8] (38:17 - 38:17) there yeah [Speaker 1] (38:17 - 38:18) were you last in the building? [Speaker 8] (38:19 - 38:26) oh um you went in there when it was being rented to the to that what's his what was that guy's name [Speaker 1] (38:29 - 38:32) Uh, they remember the man's name well, his name is Lennon. [Speaker 3] (38:32 - 38:33) Running, yeah. [Speaker 1] (38:34 - 38:44) Um yeah, and uh it was mostly tyres and repair and with Lally's yeah, we used to get oil changes there done and it was um yeah, there wasn't a lot going on there. [Speaker 3] (38:44 - 38:45) Yeah. [Speaker 6] (38:45 - 38:49) I I used to also get my oil changed at Lally's for years and I [Speaker 6] (38:50 - 38:54) I don't remember a lot. I mean, oftentimes I'd need a repair and he'd send me somewhere else. [Speaker 6] (38:54 - 38:54) Like, [Speaker 8] (38:54 - 38:55) Right. [Speaker 6] (38:55 - 39:09) just for not a body repair, but just a simple repair and rather than an oil change, he'd send me, you know, sometimes he'd fix it, but sometimes he'd send me other places. It wasn't I he had s he was slowing down a lot on the on what he was doing there. [Speaker 8] (39:16 - 39:25) Bob's a lot for friends. I was there so often over the years. He helped me with a lot of my projects and I never saw him doing any spray painting. [Speaker 8] (39:25 - 39:28) I don't know if that's useful to you or not, [Speaker 8] (39:28 - 39:31) but I think I would have smelled it if he was doing any painting. [Speaker 8] (39:34 - 39:34) Also, [Speaker 8] (39:34 - 39:44) is it unreasonable for me to ask for the manufacturer's name and the model number and all the specs for dealing with the particle matter? [Speaker 2] (40:05 - 40:17) Um I don't think it's un unreasonable for you for you to ask, I'm sure when when they pull the permit um if they if they were going to do it and they had to pull a permit they would have to s they would explain there'd be much more detailed I don't know if you've made that decision, what [Speaker 2] (40:18 - 40:19) brand you would go with okay [Speaker 3] (40:19 - 40:22) Do you have an idea of who's going to be on the tenant? [Speaker 2] (40:22 - 40:24) so they haven't made that [Speaker 3] (40:24 - 40:26) It's not us. It's just a landlord. So we're going to depend on the tenant. [Speaker 2] (40:26 - 40:33) so they haven't made that decision yet as far as the brand Well, but if a permit was pulled they would they would have uh have to [Speaker 1] (40:33 - 40:34) would there be another hearing? [Speaker 2] (40:34 - 40:35) as [Speaker 3] (40:35 - 40:35) I [Speaker 2] (40:35 - 40:35) a [Speaker 1] (40:35 - 40:39) mean, can we know this information before you make your decision? [Speaker 1] (40:39 - 40:40) That seems reasonable. [Speaker 2] (40:40 - 40:44) well it's not really that's not our so our jurisdiction is [Speaker 2] (40:44 - 40:46) is um really on the use, [Speaker 4] (40:46 - 40:46) Okay. [Speaker 2] (40:46 - 41:01) as far as the details um um on what that booth looks like and and um how it filters and everything like that, that our building commissioner would be in charge of making sure that was meeting all the state le state legisl rules and regs. [Speaker 2] (41:01 - 41:03) as well as town rules. [Speaker 2] (41:03 - 41:04) But [Speaker 3] (41:04 - 41:04) And [Speaker 2] (41:04 - 41:06) most of that's legislated by the state, at [Speaker 3] (41:06 - 41:06) I [Speaker 2] (41:06 - 41:06) the state [Speaker 3] (41:06 - 41:06) think [Speaker 2] (41:06 - 41:06) level. [Speaker 3] (41:06 - 41:15) any permit is eventually public record so you could look up a permit number and it would have drawings and specifications attached to it that [Speaker 1] (41:15 - 41:18) But you would have already approved the permit, so what [Speaker 2] (41:18 - 41:18) Yeah, [Speaker 1] (41:18 - 41:18) we would [Speaker 2] (41:18 - 41:18) wouldn't [Speaker 1] (41:18 - 41:19) not [Speaker 3] (41:19 - 41:19) We [Speaker 2] (41:19 - 41:19) approve [Speaker 1] (41:19 - 41:19) have don't a [Speaker 3] (41:19 - 41:19) approve [Speaker 1] (41:19 - 41:19) the permit. [Speaker 3] (41:19 - 41:19) the permit. [Speaker 2] (41:19 - 41:22) building a permit. We would have, we would, to be honest, [Speaker 2] (41:22 - 41:30) in this, in this situation, normally what we would do is issue a special permit. This is an unusual situation in the sense that there is no special permit for this use. [Speaker 2] (41:30 - 41:58) use the only way this use of as an auto body shop the only reason it exists at all in this location is because it always has so it's a continued use so we wouldn't we raise basically be issuing a finding that the uses can indeed continuous and they can then continue it so that's what we would be issuing we wouldn't really be issuing a special permit the building permit would be what they would be pulling from the building commissioner and that would have all the detailed plans of everything they're going to do and it's [Speaker 2] (41:58 - 42:01) and it's up to the building commissioner to issue that permit. But [Speaker 2] (42:01 - 42:04) um that is public record and you would be able to [Speaker 1] (42:04 - 42:06) But that it doesn't involve another hearing. [Speaker 2] (42:06 - 42:13) It does not involve a hearing. It's either they can do it the the um the inspector either allows it or does not [Speaker 1] (42:13 - 42:13) Allows [Speaker 2] (42:13 - 42:13) allow it. [Speaker 1] (42:13 - 42:15) the spray paint booth, you mean. [Speaker 5] (42:15 - 42:15) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (42:15 - 42:20) Going back to the same issue that we you know it seems like we're stalled here and [Speaker 2] (42:20 - 42:21) Yeah, I think what would be helpful is if [Speaker 3] (42:21 - 42:21) simple, [Speaker 2] (42:21 - 42:22) we ha [Speaker 3] (42:22 - 42:24) it's the petitioner can answer the question can [Speaker 2] (42:24 - 42:24) Yeah, [Speaker 3] (42:24 - 42:25) he provide more documentation. [Speaker 2] (42:25 - 42:27) do you you feel you can provide information [Speaker 2] (42:26 - 42:30) information received from customers that have had auto body work done um and [Speaker 3] (42:30 - 42:31) You can provide [Speaker 2] (42:31 - 42:31) over [Speaker 3] (42:31 - 42:31) anything [Speaker 2] (42:31 - 42:31) that [Speaker 3] (42:31 - 42:34) you want, right? Just, you know, anything that you think healthy. [Speaker 2] (42:34 - 42:38) you think sh shows that the use has not was never abandoned. [Speaker 3] (42:39 - 42:40) Okay. Sure. [Speaker 2] (42:40 - 42:42) And that's something you could come back come back for. [Speaker 2] (42:43 - 42:46) Um did anybody else have any any other questions? [Speaker 2] (42:49 - 42:49) Alright, so [Speaker 3] (42:49 - 42:51) Well, I I was just looking at um [Speaker 3] (42:52 - 42:56) On 48 section 6, which is what protects, [Speaker 3] (42:56 - 43:03) I'm familiar with it so much for protection of a pre-existing structure or pre-existing non-conforming lot, [Speaker 3] (43:03 - 43:05) and I just wanted, I just went into Westlaw [Speaker 3] (43:07 - 43:14) research just to see what it says about use, and I think it might be instructive for us, something for me to learn too, [Speaker 2] (43:14 - 43:15) Yeah. [Speaker 3] (43:15 - 43:18) because it does talk about [Speaker 3] (43:20 - 43:21) Um, [Speaker 3] (43:22 - 43:35) it gets into, believe it or not, the second except clause. Remember that from some of the stuff. But um so 48-6 contains two except clauses as follows. [Speaker 3] (43:36 - 43:44) One, except as herein provided a zoning ordinance or by-law shall not apply to structures or uses lawfully in existence or lawfully begun. [Speaker 3] (43:46 - 43:52) So same as it protects a structure. So if it's existing, it's grandfathered. And then there's B, [Speaker 3] (43:52 - 43:59) which shall apply to any change or substantial extension of such use. [Speaker 3] (44:04 - 44:09) So that's what we have here on that analysis. And then there's the second except clause, [Speaker 3] (44:09 - 44:10) except where [Speaker 3] (44:12 - 44:16) Um actually the second accept looks like it just refers [Speaker 3] (44:17 - 44:25) to structure not to use. So it looks like there's um [Speaker 3] (44:29 - 44:30) But then there's there's a case [Speaker 3] (44:34 - 44:39) Actually they talk about the second accept clause for structure as it relates to use. [Speaker 3] (44:40 - 44:48) Um but I I think it's just the um that analysis that they're [Speaker 3] (44:50 - 45:08) protected, but any change is substantial um if it's if it's a non-material change I think that's another avenue the petitioner has if we ruled it as something minor if there be a finding that the expansion of the use was [Speaker 3] (45:08 - 45:33) minor uh in relation to the protected principle use, I think we have authority to grant relief there too. So I think there's two potential avenues of relief. One is if they can prove the continuous uninterrupted use, accessory use. And then number two, if they can prove that they don't have that then [Speaker 3] (45:34 - 45:37) if the use is not [Speaker 3] (45:38 - 45:46) um a substantial change, specifically a substantial extension of such use. [Speaker 6] (45:46 - 45:57) But an extension is like if if I spent my whole life painting with a brush and then someone invents a sprayer and now you know, it the evolution of it [Speaker 3] (45:57 - 45:57) It [Speaker 6] (45:57 - 45:59) it just is not it's old. [Speaker 3] (45:59 - 46:01) subjective. I don't think it's subjective. [Speaker 3] (46:02 - 46:04) I think it's very subjective as to whether or not [Speaker 3] (46:04 - 46:07) It's a substantial change. [Speaker 3] (46:07 - 46:07) Well, [Speaker 6] (46:07 - 46:08) There is [Speaker 2] (46:08 - 46:20) it's either the painting has been ongoing and continuous and then that's the finding or like you said the finding would be that that a body shop it is analogous [Speaker 3] (46:20 - 46:21) not a substantial. [Speaker 2] (46:21 - 46:28) is not a substantial difference than a repair shop and that's that would be the other analysis if you feel that a body shop is [Speaker 2] (46:29 - 46:37) you know if the board members feel a body shop is an extension of a you know general repair and it's not substantially different and that would be the [Speaker 7] (46:37 - 46:44) And that's why I read you our definition, because the cheer woman is correct. There are some... [Speaker 7] (46:45 - 46:53) Municipal bodies that issue separate licenses through whatever licensing entity they have it, whether it's the licensing board or the city council, [Speaker 7] (46:53 - 46:57) they issue separate licenses for auto body, [Speaker 7] (46:57 - 46:58) auto repair. [Speaker 7] (46:58 - 47:00) Some municipalities, [Speaker 7] (47:00 - 47:08) and even here, if you were to approve it, you have to get permits for the storage of the paint because it's a flammable. [Speaker 7] (47:09 - 47:12) But what Attorney Comiskey was talking about, [Speaker 7] (47:12 - 47:16) there is a line of cases for that second accept clause, [Speaker 7] (47:16 - 47:18) known as the Powers Test. [Speaker 3] (47:18 - 47:18) Yep. [Speaker 7] (47:18 - 47:35) And I didn't specifically say it, but I clearly read the three tests that the use reflects the nature and the purpose of the nonconformity previously took effect before zoning was in effect. There's no difference in the quality or character as well as the... [Speaker 7] (47:35 - 47:45) The degree, and that's that's the subjective part could be that goes back to my Jesuit training degree is volume It's not essence and so motor vehicle. What is motor vehicle repair? [Speaker 7] (47:45 - 47:49) It's working on motor vehicles and I [Speaker 7] (47:49 - 47:57) purposely chose the definition or the example of a gas station because that's a reported case where [Speaker 7] (47:57 - 48:03) The modernization of a gas station from an old gas station was found not to be substantially an expansion. [Speaker 7] (48:04 - 48:06) It was just a modernization. It was a renovation. [Speaker 7] (48:07 - 48:14) And that's why I use that example. And then the other part of the third prong of that powers was a building inspector. [Speaker 7] (48:15 - 48:16) That's the case it's named for. [Speaker 7] (48:17 - 48:21) That the resulting use has no difference in effect on the neighborhood. [Speaker 7] (48:21 - 48:23) Lally's Garage has been there. [Speaker 7] (48:24 - 48:28) long as in most and this would not make a difference in effect on the neighborhood. [Speaker 7] (48:28 - 48:35) That, those three criteria go to that second accept clause and so whether, how you make a determination of whether, [Speaker 7] (48:35 - 48:42) so there's a series of cases that say yeah this is substantial and there's a series of cases that say that's not substantial, [Speaker 7] (48:42 - 48:43) they're all reported, [Speaker 7] (48:43 - 48:50) you could look at them but in my judgment we fall to the side of the line that says especially since you're [Speaker 7] (48:50 - 49:02) Definition says fenders, bumpers, whoever drafted the definition of auto repair or motor vehicle repair in the town of Swampscott clearly had in mind it didn't stop with the engine, [Speaker 7] (49:02 - 49:05) it went to the body work of the vehicle. [Speaker 6] (49:06 - 49:07) We're back to the same thing. [Speaker 2] (49:08 - 49:08) Yeah, Yeah, [Speaker 6] (49:08 - 49:08) I know. [Speaker 2] (49:08 - 49:08) But yeah, yeah. [Speaker 3] (49:08 - 49:09) yeah. it's It's actually [Speaker 2] (49:09 - 49:09) But basically, [Speaker 3] (49:09 - 49:09) actually [Speaker 6] (49:09 - 49:09) You [Speaker 3] (49:09 - 49:10) it's actually [Speaker 6] (49:10 - 49:10) can, [Speaker 3] (49:10 - 49:10) death of [Speaker 6] (49:10 - 49:10) he [Speaker 3] (49:10 - 49:10) all time [Speaker 6] (49:10 - 49:11) can prove [Speaker 3] (49:11 - 49:11) the [Speaker 6] (49:11 - 49:11) he [Speaker 3] (49:11 - 49:11) walls [Speaker 6] (49:11 - 49:11) can. [Speaker 3] (49:11 - 49:14) are actually you know comes up all the time [Speaker 2] (49:14 - 49:14) Comes up all the time, yeah. [Speaker 3] (49:14 - 49:17) not only structure but in quoting within [Speaker 3] (49:18 - 49:20) Um, well Ulta says structure or use. [Speaker 2] (49:20 - 49:21) And use, yeah. [Speaker 6] (49:21 - 49:22) He says he can [Speaker 2] (49:22 - 49:22) So, [Speaker 6] (49:22 - 49:23) prove that it's a continuous [Speaker 2] (49:23 - 49:25) yeah, if you can prove, I I would say, yeah, [Speaker 3] (49:25 - 49:25) So [Speaker 2] (49:25 - 49:25) I would say that [Speaker 3] (49:25 - 49:25) then [Speaker 2] (49:25 - 49:25) is the [Speaker 3] (49:25 - 49:26) it would not matter. [Speaker 2] (49:26 - 49:27) Yeah. [Speaker 6] (49:27 - 49:28) You just approve and you will. [Speaker 2] (49:28 - 49:39) So what we'll do is we'll continue this to our next month's meeting and um we'll ask you to bring proof that it's a con that it's been a continued use. If it's a continued use then then um it's [Speaker 1] (49:41 - 49:47) it's not a special permit, it's just a finding that it's been a continued use, and then you have a right to continue that use. Um [Speaker 2] (49:47 - 49:48) Was there a meaning in that meeting? [Speaker 1] (49:48 - 49:51) The date of that meeting is [Speaker 3] (49:51 - 49:58) Um and before I just wanna check and make sure that whoever is attending online didn't wanna also speak for the public hearing. [Speaker 4] (49:58 - 49:59) Alright. [Speaker 1] (50:01 - 50:01) Oh, that's right. [Speaker 1] (50:02 - 50:02) Thank you. [Speaker 5] (50:02 - 50:03) November eighteenth. [Speaker 1] (50:04 - 50:04) November [Speaker 3] (50:04 - 50:04) And I'm [Speaker 1] (50:04 - 50:04) eight. [Speaker 3] (50:04 - 50:05) I'm looking up the date also. [Speaker 6] (50:06 - 50:07) November eighteenth I have. [Speaker 3] (50:07 - 50:07) Yep. [Speaker 1] (50:07 - 50:09) I have yeah, that's what I have too. [Speaker 5] (50:09 - 50:11) Do I make one last question? [Speaker 1] (50:11 - 50:13) Yes, sure. Uh just wait for the microphone, please. [Speaker 5] (50:13 - 50:14) Okay. [Speaker 1] (50:14 - 50:14) Oh, thank you. [Speaker 7] (50:14 - 50:20) So just to make sure I understand what you're trying what you've been trying to tell me is that at the end of this hearing tonight, [Speaker 7] (50:21 - 50:23) whatever decision you make, [Speaker 7] (50:23 - 50:26) What is the status of the of the spray paint booth? [Speaker 1] (50:26 - 50:47) So right, what we're deciding, what we're talking about doing right now is continuing this to the November 18th meeting, and at which point the petitioner is being asked to bring some proof that this has been a continuous use of the auto body shop portion of the repair shop. [Speaker 1] (50:48 - 51:06) and if that is a continued use then and that is in the entire and the board votes that it it looks like it has been a continuous use then you would then it would just be a finding that the use can continue then they would have to pull a permit with the building inspector for anything that they want to build and add to the space [Speaker 7] (51:06 - 51:06) And that's [Speaker 1] (51:06 - 51:07) does [Speaker 7] (51:07 - 51:07) not that a [Speaker 1] (51:07 - 51:07) make sense [Speaker 7] (51:07 - 51:09) public hearing process. [Speaker 1] (51:09 - 51:12) that's not a public hearing process yeah is that all [Speaker 1] (51:13 - 51:17) Alright, so can we get a motion to continue to the November eighteenth meeting? [Speaker 6] (51:17 - 51:18) I'll make a motion to continue to November eighteenth. [Speaker 8] (51:18 - 51:19) I'll [Speaker 1] (51:19 - 51:19) I'll give it a second. [Speaker 8] (51:19 - 51:20) second it. [Speaker 1] (51:20 - 51:20) Alright, all in favour? [Speaker 8] (51:20 - 51:21) I'll [Speaker 6] (51:21 - 51:21) I. [Speaker 8] (51:21 - 51:21) I'll [Speaker 1] (51:21 - 51:21) aye. [Speaker 8] (51:21 - 51:22) do it. [Speaker 1] (51:22 - 51:23) Alright. [Speaker 8] (51:23 - 51:23) 'Kay, I'll [Speaker 1] (51:23 - 51:24) So we'll see you then.