[Speaker 1] (0:55 - 0:59)
Good? Okay. Very good. Hey everyone, uh we're gonna start. So if we could just quiet down a little bit.

[Speaker 2] (0:59 - 1:00)
Oh, that's Chris Lucas.

[Speaker 1] (1:00 - 1:02)
So I

[Speaker 2] (1:02 - 1:03)
That's Chris Lucas.

[Speaker 1] (1:03 - 1:09)
will uh I'll call this meeting of the Swarthscot Planning Board to order.

[Speaker 1] (1:11 - 1:13)
Uh the time is uh seven

[Speaker 2] (1:13 - 1:13)
Excuse me.

[Speaker 1] (1:13 - 1:13)
o'clock.

[Speaker 2] (1:13 - 1:14)
Order, please.

[Speaker 2] (1:16 - 1:16)
Thank you.

[Speaker 1] (1:16 - 1:21)
And we're conducting this meeting via Teams uh and it's being recorded as well.

[Speaker 1] (1:22 - 1:26)
Um the uh d we don't have any minutes tonight, right Krista?

[Speaker 1] (1:26 - 1:36)
Okay. Um so the first item on the agenda is done, and uh I'm gonna recuse myself from the second item, so I'll turn it over to Angela.

[Speaker 3] (1:37 - 1:38)
Okay. Good evening.

[Speaker 4] (1:38 - 1:39)
Mike is on?

[Speaker 1] (1:39 - 1:40)
Yeah, can you not hear us?

[Speaker 3] (1:40 - 1:48)
Yes, my mic is on. Can you everyone hear me? Okay, I'll just hold it up 'cause sometimes when there's a lot of people it's hard to hear.

[Speaker 3] (1:49 - 1:55)
Okay, so the first item on our agenda tonight is a public hearing on

[Speaker 3] (1:56 - 2:04)
Petition 261145 Pleasant Street by Kenneth Schutzer, Esquire care of Michael Snitzkowski,

[Speaker 3] (2:05 - 2:21)
and this is requesting a site plan special permit to demolish the existing two-family dwelling and construct a five-unit condominium development with each containing approximately 1,850 square feet of living area together with associated.

[Speaker 3] (2:21 - 2:26)
Needed parking and site improvements in the A4 zoning district,

[Speaker 3] (2:26 - 2:29)
and the address again is 45 Pleasant Street.

[Speaker 3] (2:31 - 2:31)
Mr.

[Speaker 3] (2:32 - 2:37)
Schutzer, I'm assuming do you have a full site plan for us tonight?

[Speaker 5] (2:37 - 2:42)
No, it's my understanding that the applicant has asked that the matter be put over to the October meeting.

[Speaker 3] (2:43 - 2:47)
In that case, we can take a vote to continue to October, is that what you're requesting?

[Speaker 5] (2:47 - 2:52)
That would be the request. I don't believe that we have the necessary uh application filled in detail.

[Speaker 3] (2:52 - 3:00)
I would agree with you. I agree with you. Thank you. Um so, will someone please make a motion to continue this petition to our October meet meeting?

[Speaker 1] (3:00 - 3:01)
So moved.

[Speaker 6] (3:02 - 3:02)
I'll second.

[Speaker 3] (3:03 - 3:04)
All in favour?

[Speaker 5] (3:04 - 3:04)
Aye.

[Speaker 3] (3:04 - 3:06)
Okay. Thank you very much.

[Speaker 1] (3:19 - 3:22)
With that, we will move on to the next item,

[Speaker 1] (3:22 - 3:29)
which is Petition 26-12 for 76 Barnstable Street by Matthew Barron.

[Speaker 1] (3:43 - 3:45)
Can you just introduce yourself and name and address?

[Speaker 7] (3:46 - 3:46)
Of course.

[Speaker 7] (3:46 - 3:48)
Can you hear me all right?

[Speaker 1] (3:48 - 3:48)
Yeah.

[Speaker 7] (3:49 - 3:50)
My name is Matthew Baron.

[Speaker 7] (3:50 - 3:52)
I live at 76 Barnstable Street.

[Speaker 7] (3:53 - 3:55)
I'm here with my wife, Emily Baron,

[Speaker 7] (3:55 - 3:57)
who also lives at 76 Barnstable Street.

[Speaker 7] (4:01 - 4:09)
All right, I want to thank you all very much for having us this evening and for hearing our petition to amend our site plan special permit.

[Speaker 7] (4:09 - 4:20)
Um we were here two years ago where this board granted us a site plan special permit and um we are here back again for seeking a modification of it.

[Speaker 7] (4:23 - 4:25)
Um as I said we live at 76 Barnstable Street.

[Speaker 7] (4:26 - 4:29)
We have a six-year-old son his name is Theodora Baron.

[Speaker 7] (4:29 - 4:35)
He's a first grader at Swampskate Elementary School and Theo has cerebral palsy.

[Speaker 7] (4:36 - 4:45)
which is a lifelong disability caused by a traumatic brain injury and in Theodora's case it happened at birth and there is no cure to this.

[Speaker 7] (4:48 - 5:00)
The it affects Theo in a lot of ways but the way that affects him the most is his mobility. He typically will use a combination of assistive devices

[Speaker 7] (5:01 - 5:04)
Could be crutches, walker, or wheelchair.

[Speaker 7] (5:05 - 5:09)
And he can't take steps independently without one of those mobility devices.

[Speaker 7] (5:10 - 5:19)
He also, he has trouble walking distances, so he may move from his walker to his wheelchair over a long distance because of the toll it takes on his body.

[Speaker 7] (5:20 - 5:47)
So we're here tonight to ask for two modifications. The first modification that we're seeking is for a modification of the approved plans to adopt into the as-built of the garage with the, I believe the item at issue being the door that is on the side of the garage that was a window in the approved plans and that door is currently intended to access to a handicap access ramp that we're going to construct.

[Speaker 7] (5:48 - 6:06)
The second modification that we're seeking is a modification to actually this board's site plan special permit which is the privacy screening that we were asked to plant. And we're seeking to a modification for that so that it does not impede with our right to build a handicap access ramp.

[Speaker 7] (6:07 - 6:09)
So I do,

[Speaker 7] (6:09 - 6:15)
I kind of want to take a little bit of a step back because I feel like the notice for this hearing needs a little bit of a reframing.

[Speaker 7] (6:17 - 6:32)
The notice itself says that we're seeking modifications to previously approved plans including a retaining wall and a replacement of a garage window with the door to a ramp providing access to the new door.

[Speaker 7] (6:33 - 6:37)
Just for clarification, we're not building a retaining wall, this is a base of a handicap ramp.

[Speaker 7] (6:38 - 6:46)
It just happens to be with stone because we have stones that were all excavated from our project. We have a lot of them. Our house has been a quarry for the past two years.

[Speaker 7] (6:48 - 6:53)
Most importantly though, and it is our position and I'm here to communicate that tonight,

[Speaker 7] (6:53 - 6:56)
that we have a right to construct a handicap access ramp.

[Speaker 7] (6:57 - 7:03)
And that exemption from zoning regulation is found in Massachusetts statutory law,

[Speaker 7] (7:03 - 7:08)
Massachusetts General Law chapter 48, section 3.

[Speaker 7] (7:08 - 7:13)
It explicitly exempts handicap ramps from local zoning,

[Speaker 7] (7:13 - 7:15)
you know, like setbacks, open space,

[Speaker 7] (7:15 - 7:16)
things like that.

[Speaker 7] (7:18 - 7:28)
In fact, this is so explicit in Massachusetts law that I don't even think we really need to think about things like the American with Disabilities Act or the Fair Housing Act because,

[Speaker 7] (7:28 - 7:29)
well,

[Speaker 7] (7:30 - 7:31)
chances are that those would fall,

[Speaker 7] (7:31 - 7:36)
that this right is here as well, but Massachusetts law is very clear about this.

[Speaker 7] (7:37 - 7:50)
Um so I did I just wanted to do that reframing because I felt like the notice was not entirely clear because we're asking for these two modifications be at the door and then also the privacy screening.

[Speaker 7] (7:50 - 7:53)
So I'd like to start with the door.

[Speaker 7] (7:55 - 8:05)
I want to thank the chair for asking for a clarification and a comparison last week so that we could sort of lay this out a little bit better because I feel like more completeness is better.

[Speaker 7] (8:06 - 8:09)
You know, we submitted the memo.

[Speaker 7] (8:11 - 8:14)
And so as we explained in the submissions,

[Speaker 7] (8:14 - 8:21)
the door that was built was suggested to us during the building process and we agreed to it.

[Speaker 7] (8:22 - 8:24)
We thought it was minor.

[Speaker 7] (8:24 - 8:25)
We thought it was reasonable.

[Speaker 7] (8:26 - 8:34)
We also were not aware that this would be a change that necessitated an amendment to our site plan special permit.

[Speaker 7] (8:35 - 8:36)
The project was completed.

[Speaker 7] (8:37 - 8:38)
It was inspected.

[Speaker 7] (8:39 - 8:47)
We specifically talked about the door at the inspection and then a certificate of occupancy was issued and so that sort of reinforced our thoughts that everything was okay with the town.

[Speaker 7] (8:48 - 8:52)
In fact it wasn't until there was a complaint about the construction of our,

[Speaker 7] (8:52 - 9:03)
the base to the ramp that we found out that there was an issue, a compliance issue with the town as a result of this. And so once we got that complaint I went and spoke with the building commissioner.

[Speaker 7] (9:03 - 9:05)
He explained to me how material it is.

[Speaker 7] (9:06 - 9:24)
Um we understand that um and so, you know, after discussing we agreed that the best path would be to seek a modification for our site plan special permit in order to um a bit approve the as-built. And so that's what we're doing here. So that's how we got here. Um

[Speaker 7] (9:25 - 9:28)
The question is why. Why do we have this door?

[Speaker 7] (9:28 - 9:30)
The answer is quite simple.

[Speaker 7] (9:30 - 9:33)
It's going to be the access point to an access,

[Speaker 7] (9:33 - 9:35)
a handicap access ramp for Theo.

[Speaker 7] (9:36 - 9:48)
This handicap access ramp is going to provide Theo access from both the main house and from the outside to his basement and to his backyard. It is the shortest route.

[Speaker 7] (9:49 - 9:59)
which for his mobility disability makes sense. It is the safest route because in order to get there, if he went from inside, he would traverse our ADA compliant.

[Speaker 1] (10:05 - 10:20)
know the purpose of the ramp is so that Theo can access his entire home and um you know the Ozbilt door that we're requesting for the approval for is the best way to achieve that access I'm just going to take a sip of water excuse me

[Speaker 1] (10:34 - 10:46)
The second request that we have for the amendment to the Site Plan Special Permit is to the modification or a discussion regarding the privacy screening that was in this board's previous decision.

[Speaker 1] (10:48 - 10:56)
And the reason why we're seeking modification is we want to make sure that the privacy screening does not restrict or impede on our right to build a handicap access ramp.

[Speaker 1] (10:57 - 11:12)
just and I'm sure you all have reviewed this but just for the sake of the record right now the decision says that we must install a year-round greenery planting buffer such as Arborvitae that will provide a privacy screening for the abutter

[Speaker 1] (11:13 - 11:16)
Um, I'd like to point out that first and foremost,

[Speaker 1] (11:16 - 11:29)
our plan um has always been to do privacy plantings between the boundary of seventy six Barnstable and forty eight Barnstable. Um we just we need to do it in a way that it doesn't impede with this handicap access ramp.

[Speaker 1] (11:32 - 11:34)
And so we wanna have a conversation

[Speaker 1] (11:35 - 11:39)
about how we can do this privacy screening without restricting that right.

[Speaker 1] (11:40 - 11:50)
And we placed the project on hold when we received the complaint so that we can address this issue and then complete it to complete it.

[Speaker 1] (11:51 - 12:01)
We also provided a suggestion for plantings that we thought would maximize privacy as best we can without restricting that right.

[Speaker 1] (12:04 - 12:05)
Using tape measure,

[Speaker 1] (12:05 - 12:12)
so admittedly a very rough measurement, there's about 87 feet of boundary between 48 and 76 Barnstable Street.

[Speaker 1] (12:13 - 12:17)
What we had suggested would provide plantings for about 75 of those feet.

[Speaker 1] (12:19 - 12:24)
We understand that that's 12 feet that are not provided a suggestion.

[Speaker 1] (12:26 - 12:29)
12 feet is also underneath Ms.

[Speaker 1] (12:29 - 12:29)
McGaffigan,

[Speaker 1] (12:29 - 12:33)
who's the owner of 48 Barn School Street, her window,

[Speaker 1] (12:33 - 12:35)
which is about 12 feet off the ground,

[Speaker 1] (12:35 - 12:49)
and so the reason why there were no suggested plantings for that area is because it's going to be a narrow space, and that's because of the anticipated width of the handicap access ramp.

[Speaker 1] (12:52 - 13:09)
And so that's one reason why we think there while there is a limited space, um the second reason you know there was recently a survey done at at forty eight Barnstable and stakes were put down and you know at you know from looking at it you can't see the stakes that are on the property boundary so it appears as if

[Speaker 2] (13:09 - 13:11)
Mr. Baron we're coming up on about ten minutes, so

[Speaker 2] (13:12 - 13:14)
Just you know maybe another minute or two

[Speaker 1] (13:14 - 13:14)
Sure.

[Speaker 1] (13:15 - 13:22)
So it looks like, you know, you can't see the stakes between the two. So it looks like the butt of the wall actually encroaches a bit into that space as well.

[Speaker 1] (13:25 - 13:31)
So we're asking the board to recognize that Theo's statutory right to construct his handicap access ramp is the priority.

[Speaker 1] (13:31 - 13:33)
And we want privacy too,

[Speaker 1] (13:33 - 13:39)
but how much privacy we can achieve is secondary to addressing Theo's right to access.

[Speaker 1] (13:41 - 13:43)
So I want to thank you all very much for the time.

[Speaker 1] (13:44 - 13:49)
I understand that there was an opposition letter that was written and I'm happy to comment on that now or later.

[Speaker 1] (13:49 - 13:52)
I just, you know, I understand that that's also in the record.

[Speaker 2] (13:54 - 13:55)
Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (13:55 - 14:21)
Um I'm going to open it up to board comments first and I think I'll just start um you know look I think we're all totally sympathetic I remember that meeting uh two years ago and we you know want Theo and you and your family to be able to use your house that's the whole point that we uh prove the whole thing um and I'm not going to argue with you on the statutory piece of it because I think you're

[Speaker 3] (14:21 - 14:39)
probably right that, you know, you can install the um the the ramp. Um but you know we're a community board and uh I think the the one thing that we put in there that I think we felt strongly about was um

[Speaker 3] (14:40 - 14:51)
was making sure that there was some screening, right, between you and your neighbour. So uh I I thought that I had a letter here that sort of described the differences um

[Speaker 3] (14:51 - 15:07)
a little bit more. I thought I crested, do we have the complaint letter? Um I guess I'd I guess I'd like to know you know a door, a window, I'm gonna speak for the rest of the board. I don't know that I'm too concerned about that piece of it um

[Speaker 3] (15:07 - 15:22)
it's it's really just making sure that you know when this board approves something that uh you know keeping in mind the rights of the abutters that those abutters are getting their benefit of the bargain too so um i appreciate that you mentioned that you know 87 feet

[Speaker 3] (15:23 - 15:47)
Uh well you said seventy five feet of the eighty seven foot boundary is gonna be um uh you know covered in some way screened. So I guess I'd like to hear maybe uh after if there are any other comments, um a little bit more about that, you know, is that year round screening or not and also um in that twelve feet where it's missing, is there anything that you know you've discussed with your

[Speaker 3] (15:48 - 15:55)
architect or anyone else that you think you could put in there to maybe address the the neighbor's concerns yeah

[Speaker 1] (15:55 - 15:56)
Sure.

[Speaker 3] (15:56 - 15:57)
okay

[Speaker 1] (15:57 - 16:02)
So the thought is for the plantings is 75 feet or so that we talked about.

[Speaker 1] (16:02 - 16:09)
It could be and plan would be to be year-round greenery. So, you know, something along the lines of like a...

[Speaker 1] (16:10 - 16:34)
Juniper holly you know where you know it's not an overly large bucket but you know that can be planted and then when we get past the base of the wall the space is much greater and that can be your traditional arborvite so yes that that is the intention we also had suggested to sort of make up for the the 12 feet you know to plant a tree that could

[Speaker 1] (16:34 - 16:56)
well the crown so that we could provide some privacy screening and it would you know what was there before the project took place was not an a year-round greenery but it was something that was you know it was a tree that crowned up at the top so it would be a similar type cover there you know it is

[Speaker 1] (16:57 - 17:04)
a window that's over 12 feet from the ground. So it's going to take some time regardless for that to happen.

[Speaker 1] (17:04 - 17:12)
So uh that I think that's also worth noting that it's a very high win it's a high window compared to where our backyard is. And uh it always has been.

[Speaker 3] (17:12 - 17:13)
Thanks.

[Speaker 3] (17:13 - 17:16)
Thank you. Um any other comments from the board?

[Speaker 4] (17:16 - 17:17)
Yeah, did we have a

[Speaker 5] (17:20 - 17:25)
this very well. And I remember going to the zoning board meeting with three of you and your wife. Um

[Speaker 5] (17:26 - 17:36)
To advocate for you, and it you're right, it's your right to have the handicap ramp um that is the priority here and and there is no disputing that.

[Speaker 5] (17:38 - 17:51)
My question is, were we did we not have plans in there where we specified the width of the ramp and we knew, you know, where the plantings would go or were we just because

[Speaker 5] (17:51 - 17:53)
just kind of because I don't really see you

[Speaker 3] (17:53 - 17:54)
There's

[Speaker 5] (17:54 - 17:54)
know

[Speaker 3] (17:54 - 17:54)
no there's no sight

[Speaker 6] (17:54 - 17:55)
This

[Speaker 3] (17:55 - 17:55)
plan

[Speaker 6] (17:55 - 17:55)
this this

[Speaker 1] (17:55 - 17:55)
there

[Speaker 6] (17:55 - 17:56)
is a little thing I just

[Speaker 1] (17:56 - 17:56)
Yeah,

[Speaker 6] (17:56 - 17:57)
noticed.

[Speaker 1] (17:57 - 18:01)
there was no sight plan that had any sort of plantings It was a condition that we talked about

[Speaker 5] (18:01 - 18:01)
It's

[Speaker 1] (18:01 - 18:02)
but

[Speaker 5] (18:02 - 18:02)
a condition.

[Speaker 1] (18:02 - 18:02)
at

[Speaker 5] (18:02 - 18:08)
I'm talking about the ramp itself. Did we know how wide it was going to be and where how it was going to be located?

[Speaker 1] (18:08 - 18:10)
the time we didn't even know that there was going to be a ramp

[Speaker 3] (18:10 - 18:12)
Yeah, I was I was gonna say the initial proposal

[Speaker 5] (18:12 - 18:12)
I thought we

[Speaker 3] (18:12 - 18:12)
we

[Speaker 5] (18:12 - 18:12)
did.

[Speaker 3] (18:12 - 18:14)
didn't. Let's let's just let's just take one

[Speaker 5] (18:14 - 18:14)
No,

[Speaker 3] (18:14 - 18:14)
question

[Speaker 5] (18:14 - 18:15)
it's okay.

[Speaker 3] (18:15 - 18:15)
at a time

[Speaker 5] (18:15 - 18:15)
No.

[Speaker 3] (18:16 - 18:18)
it it was a there was going to be two windows

[Speaker 5] (18:18 - 18:19)
Right.

[Speaker 3] (18:19 - 18:22)
and they're putting in a door instead that goes to a ramp. There wasn't going to be a ramp.

[Speaker 5] (18:22 - 18:24)
There wasn't going to be a ramp there.

[Speaker 3] (18:24 - 18:25)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (18:25 - 18:31)
But I thought we did have some kind of ramp access or was it just the way the the front yard was sloped or

[Speaker 1] (18:31 - 18:31)
So

[Speaker 5] (18:31 - 18:31)
were we

[Speaker 1] (18:31 - 18:32)
we've

[Speaker 5] (18:32 - 18:32)
b the

[Speaker 1] (18:32 - 18:32)
we've

[Speaker 5] (18:32 - 18:32)
idea

[Speaker 1] (18:32 - 18:32)
built a

[Speaker 5] (18:32 - 18:35)
was a drive into the garage? I'm just trying to remember exactly.

[Speaker 1] (18:35 - 18:42)
Oh so there were some discussions about ramps where in the garage there is a ramp between the garage level and our

[Speaker 1] (18:42 - 18:43)
our house

[Speaker 5] (18:43 - 18:43)
That's what I'm

[Speaker 1] (18:43 - 18:44)
and

[Speaker 5] (18:44 - 18:44)
thinking,

[Speaker 1] (18:44 - 18:44)
then we've also

[Speaker 5] (18:44 - 18:44)
yeah.

[Speaker 1] (18:44 - 18:52)
done a ramp um where we it's the door we use the most it's not technically the front door but there is a ramp there

[Speaker 5] (18:52 - 18:52)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (18:52 - 18:53)
as well that we've built

[Speaker 5] (18:54 - 18:59)
So this is now an additional ramp. So we're not talking about, you know, the original...

[Speaker 5] (19:00 - 19:00)
idea

[Speaker 3] (19:00 - 19:01)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (19:01 - 19:02)
for for access so

[Speaker 1] (19:02 - 19:02)
This would be

[Speaker 6] (19:02 - 19:02)
you

[Speaker 1] (19:02 - 19:03)
the

[Speaker 6] (19:03 - 19:03)
want

[Speaker 1] (19:03 - 19:03)
third.

[Speaker 6] (19:03 - 19:04)
this a different level of

[Speaker 1] (19:04 - 19:04)
Correct.

[Speaker 1] (19:04 - 19:05)
So this would be the third ramp.

[Speaker 5] (19:05 - 19:06)
yep okay yeah

[Speaker 1] (19:06 - 19:08)
There's a lot of ramps.

[Speaker 5] (19:08 - 19:08)
of course

[Speaker 1] (19:08 - 19:09)
But yes,

[Speaker 5] (19:09 - 19:09)
right

[Speaker 1] (19:09 - 19:13)
this would go from the main level to

[Speaker 5] (19:13 - 19:13)
okay

[Speaker 1] (19:13 - 19:14)
the basement,

[Speaker 1] (19:14 - 19:15)
which is where all the utilities are.

[Speaker 1] (19:15 - 19:19)
And with the thought that this is a forever home for Theo,

[Speaker 1] (19:19 - 19:25)
that's what our goal from the start was to have this be a home that he could grow up and live in and have his ability.

[Speaker 1] (19:25 - 19:35)
Okay. ability to access however long he needed without having to, you know, basically ask for that, you know, in a different living scenario as he gets older.

[Speaker 5] (19:35 - 19:35)
Okay.

[Speaker 3] (19:35 - 19:39)
Was there a reason the architect didn't include this in the original proposal?

[Speaker 1] (19:40 - 19:40)
Um

[Speaker 1] (19:41 - 19:47)
No, I don't think that there's a reason why he didn't. It was not really contemplated at the time.

[Speaker 3] (19:47 - 19:48)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (19:48 - 19:52)
I guess that's the reason because it wasn't discussed much,

[Speaker 1] (19:52 - 19:53)
if at all.

[Speaker 2] (19:55 - 19:56)
Okay, um so

[Speaker 2] (19:58 - 20:02)
uh you know I would I would agree with Joe, I don't have an issue with uh

[Speaker 2] (20:02 - 20:02)
Um,

[Speaker 2] (20:03 - 20:07)
unless someone can can make a finer point on this for me,

[Speaker 2] (20:07 - 20:12)
I don't have an issue with switching out a door for a window, I mean even though you deviate it from the site plan,

[Speaker 2] (20:13 - 20:27)
that's up to the building commissioner to to smooth that out, but as far as I'm concerned I I really don't have an issue with that. I think the concern from what I'm hearing is the the ability of uh you and your wife to create this kind of

[Speaker 2] (20:27 - 20:52)
kind of green boundary to create some kind of a buffer to protect the privacy of your you know for both you and your neighbor but your neighbor is you know particularly concerned that that they're going to you know have a real loss of privacy there and we did you know we certainly tried to alleviate that problem by by requesting that you have the buffer in there so

[Speaker 2] (20:53 - 20:56)
My question is, does this new ramp...

[Speaker 2] (20:56 - 21:05)
Will it preclude any kind of green buffering or is it still your intention to be able to use green buffering here?

[Speaker 2] (21:05 - 21:08)
I just need to understand that.

[Speaker 1] (21:08 - 21:16)
It is not 100% precluding, but there would be an area that the ramp would does not leave enough space for there to be a tree planted.

[Speaker 2] (21:16 - 21:20)
And how tight would that be actually?

[Speaker 2] (21:20 - 21:20)
Are you talking?

[Speaker 1] (21:20 - 21:21)
It's about a foot.

[Speaker 1] (21:21 - 21:25)
uh I think it's about ten inches, something like that.

[Speaker 2] (21:25 - 21:40)
All right. So you could put up a a fence, for example, there could be a fence in there which, you know, kind of a a lattice type of very open sort of thing where you could, you know, grow uh put a little vine plant going up there, something like that. I see what you're looking at. Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (21:40 - 21:44)
To to just look at it because of the the the scale of it when

[Speaker 2] (21:44 - 21:44)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (21:44 - 21:46)
we're talking fencing is

[Speaker 2] (21:46 - 21:47)
I'm just trying to think of a

[Speaker 3] (21:47 - 21:47)
pretty

[Speaker 2] (21:47 - 21:47)
um

[Speaker 3] (21:47 - 21:48)
is pretty tall.

[Speaker 2] (21:48 - 21:48)
yeah.

[Speaker 1] (21:48 - 21:49)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (21:49 - 21:50)
It's tall,

[Speaker 2] (21:50 - 21:50)
right?

[Speaker 2] (21:50 - 21:54)
I'm just trying to think of what a solution might be in that tight area,

[Speaker 2] (21:54 - 21:57)
and that seems to be the problem here,

[Speaker 2] (21:57 - 21:59)
and you are absolutely,

[Speaker 2] (21:59 - 22:07)
you know, there's no contesting the fact that you are allowed by law to have that ramp, and there is, there's no denying that,

[Speaker 2] (22:07 - 22:15)
and nor would we want to, but we do, you know, as we do have to think about how can we solve this problem of that little space there.

[Speaker 2] (22:16 - 22:19)
So I think that's kind of what we're up against.

[Speaker 2] (22:19 - 22:21)
I don't know if anyone else has any thoughts

[Speaker 3] (22:21 - 22:21)
Yes,

[Speaker 2] (22:21 - 22:21)
on that.

[Speaker 3] (22:21 - 22:23)
when when was the when was the door

[Speaker 3] (22:24 - 22:25)
changed to the window?

[Speaker 3] (22:26 - 22:27)
Other way

[Speaker 1] (22:27 - 22:27)
Other

[Speaker 3] (22:27 - 22:27)
around.

[Speaker 1] (22:27 - 22:27)
way around.

[Speaker 2] (22:27 - 22:28)
The window changed to a door.

[Speaker 4] (22:28 - 22:29)
No.

[Speaker 3] (22:29 - 22:30)
So the original plan had a door?

[Speaker 3] (22:30 - 22:31)
No original

[Speaker 1] (22:31 - 22:31)
No, the

[Speaker 3] (22:31 - 22:31)
plan had a window.

[Speaker 1] (22:31 - 22:32)
original plan had

[Speaker 2] (22:32 - 22:32)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (22:32 - 22:32)
a window.

[Speaker 3] (22:32 - 22:34)
When did that get changed to a door?

[Speaker 1] (22:35 - 22:43)
So that got changed probably at the very beginning of construction. That's what was suggested to us.

[Speaker 3] (22:44 - 22:50)
So these plans here that show the door are before the last meeting or after the last meeting?

[Speaker 1] (22:50 - 22:51)
after the last meeting that

[Speaker 3] (22:51 - 22:52)
So these.

[Speaker 1] (22:52 - 23:05)
that those plans were built because of the the requirement for smoke detector so that was done because we had to submit something for the smoke detectors and so that that's what happened

[Speaker 2] (23:05 - 23:08)
So because I'm looking at these plans that are dated 2023.

[Speaker 2] (23:09 - 23:16)
And the door is there. So are those actually the plans we approved? 'Cause it seems like that's kind of a

[Speaker 1] (23:16 - 23:21)
No, I think that would have been a revision, because I looked at what was submitted and I I

[Speaker 5] (23:21 - 23:21)
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 1] (23:21 - 23:21)
what was submitted

[Speaker 5] (23:21 - 23:22)
So it's not

[Speaker 1] (23:22 - 23:22)
had the window.

[Speaker 3] (23:22 - 23:22)
This is

[Speaker 5] (23:22 - 23:24)
The door's not there.

[Speaker 3] (23:24 - 23:24)
Oh, that's

[Speaker 2] (23:24 - 23:25)
I see that

[Speaker 3] (23:25 - 23:25)
I think

[Speaker 1] (23:25 - 23:25)
this

[Speaker 3] (23:25 - 23:26)
he's referring to this.

[Speaker 6] (23:26 - 23:27)
I mean, and the plan said you are in the packet.

[Speaker 3] (23:27 - 23:28)
is uh The the

[Speaker 6] (23:28 - 23:28)
door is there,

[Speaker 2] (23:28 - 23:29)
Yeah,

[Speaker 6] (23:29 - 23:29)
in twenty twenty three.

[Speaker 3] (23:29 - 23:30)
Twenty

[Speaker 2] (23:30 - 23:30)
that's

[Speaker 3] (23:30 - 23:30)
four.

[Speaker 2] (23:30 - 23:31)
I think I'm talking about.

[Speaker 6] (23:31 - 23:32)
But that was supposed to be a window?

[Speaker 5] (23:32 - 23:33)
And that is not

[Speaker 1] (23:33 - 23:33)
No,

[Speaker 5] (23:33 - 23:33)
a uh

[Speaker 1] (23:33 - 23:35)
uh no, I

[Speaker 5] (23:35 - 23:36)
Oh, around. Okay.

[Speaker 1] (23:36 - 23:36)
I think

[Speaker 2] (23:37 - 23:37)
Did you see what we're

[Speaker 3] (23:37 - 23:37)
So

[Speaker 2] (23:37 - 23:38)
looking at?

[Speaker 3] (23:38 - 23:38)
I

[Speaker 7] (23:38 - 23:39)
Well, that's what the door, it's around back.

[Speaker 7] (23:40 - 23:42)
So this is where I'm talking about this.

[Speaker 3] (23:42 - 23:47)
So a couple things that, right, I think that was supposed to be a window in the original plan.

[Speaker 2] (23:47 - 23:48)
So, but this says 2023

[Speaker 3] (23:48 - 23:49)
Yeah, I

[Speaker 2] (23:49 - 23:49)
on

[Speaker 3] (23:49 - 23:49)
know,

[Speaker 2] (23:49 - 23:49)
it.

[Speaker 3] (23:49 - 23:49)
Metro

[Speaker 2] (23:49 - 23:50)
So we wider. never, we never

[Speaker 3] (23:50 - 23:50)
Look

[Speaker 2] (23:50 - 23:51)
got

[Speaker 3] (23:51 - 24:00)
up at your revision numbers. Uh revise on 11.21.2024 um under the revisions where there's Oh, I see. a s there it's circled in the next chart

[Speaker 7] (24:00 - 24:01)
Informed,

[Speaker 3] (24:01 - 24:01)
up.

[Speaker 7] (24:01 - 24:01)
said, yeah.

[Speaker 3] (24:01 - 24:02)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (24:02 - 24:04)
But the issue was it didn't come before us

[Speaker 3] (24:04 - 24:04)
Yeah,

[Speaker 2] (24:04 - 24:05)
at that point.

[Speaker 3] (24:05 - 24:05)
right.

[Speaker 3] (24:05 - 24:06)
Right. So

[Speaker 7] (24:06 - 24:06)
What?

[Speaker 3] (24:06 - 24:30)
the uh the other thing I just think it this is a minor thing, but it isn't totally a minor thing. Um this door is not in the same location that the window was. It's just the window was not built and this door is pushed far forward um on the on the house, 'cause it's right adjacent to the garage door. So there are two windows that appear to be placed where

[Speaker 3] (24:31 - 24:46)
They were in the original design and then the door was relocated, which is is here and over there, but I'm saying it because it's actually pulled away from the windows on the other house. So it's not quite it's it's not an alignment there.

[Speaker 3] (24:46 - 24:47)
Um

[Speaker 3] (24:48 - 24:54)
I'm trying to get this in my head. So I'm gonna ask some questions just in general. Um

[Speaker 3] (24:55 - 25:10)
What appears to me is that these are two very separate items. We approved a plan that had three windows and Waukaville had a door. And then the ramp is the ramp was an unknown for us.

[Speaker 3] (25:11 - 25:17)
And so there was nothing discussed on that. We discussed trees being planted in that zone. And

[Speaker 2] (25:17 - 25:17)
Right.

[Speaker 3] (25:17 - 25:20)
then later on the idea came to build the ramp.

[Speaker 3] (25:20 - 25:29)
And I think what I'm left wondering is if the ramp and the retaining wall,

[Speaker 3] (25:29 - 25:31)
it appears the retaining wall,

[Speaker 3] (25:31 - 25:33)
there was not a permit asked for the retaining wall.

[Speaker 3] (25:34 - 25:37)
So that is what triggered it over in the building department.

[Speaker 6] (25:38 - 25:42)
Yeah, that was one of the letters that I sent.

[Speaker 3] (25:42 - 25:42)
Okay,

[Speaker 6] (25:42 - 25:42)
One of them

[Speaker 3] (25:42 - 25:43)
that's...

[Speaker 6] (25:43 - 25:45)
was building permit for the wall.

[Speaker 6] (25:47 - 25:55)
um a request to go back to get an amended planning board decision because of the change from three windows to two windows.

[Speaker 3] (25:55 - 26:05)
And I think they, the ramp and the um the ramp and the retaining wall is very separate from the door. I know the door is there to get onto the ramp, but

[Speaker 3] (26:06 - 26:14)
we have never reviewed a site plan showing a retaining wall or a ramp, and right now what we are looking at

[Speaker 3] (26:15 - 26:27)
isn't truly a your your architect has not provided um a site plan that is showing planting intention, it isn't showing so at the point that we did this

[Speaker 3] (26:28 - 26:37)
Two years ago? I didn't even know I was on this board two years ago, but I was there. Um when we were doing that, we were very very conscious of expediting

[Speaker 6] (26:37 - 26:37)
Oh, I'm sorry.

[Speaker 3] (26:37 - 26:46)
you had neighbour support, we wanted to move this thing without a delay. So we actually wrote the plantings in

[Speaker 2] (26:46 - 26:47)
Right. They

[Speaker 3] (26:47 - 26:48)
To not delay.

[Speaker 2] (26:48 - 26:48)
just,

[Speaker 2] (26:48 - 26:49)
right.

[Speaker 3] (26:49 - 26:54)
Um so that's why like it took me a while to put this back together. It's like well why hasn't there a site plan.

[Speaker 2] (26:54 - 26:54)
Right.

[Speaker 3] (26:54 - 27:12)
Well there isn't a landscape site plan because we we found a work around in order to not delay your project. Um I do think at this point in time your architect should have produced a landscape plan that's in accordance to coming in front of us for a special

[Speaker 3] (27:13 - 27:25)
permit for for the site plan because right now we can talk about this amendment but I'm I'm feeling like it's pretty slim on what

[Speaker 3] (27:25 - 27:26)
That that's our

[Speaker 7] (27:26 - 27:36)
I still think we're talking about a different door around the back of the proposed edition. Like that's what that's what's confusing about all of this is that this path is showing it go wrapping around the garage, right, and going down to the

[Speaker 3] (27:36 - 27:37)
But

[Speaker 7] (27:37 - 27:37)
beach.

[Speaker 1] (27:37 - 27:37)
Yeah,

[Speaker 3] (27:37 - 27:37)
it

[Speaker 1] (27:37 - 27:38)
because that's where the basement door is.

[Speaker 3] (27:38 - 27:42)
That basement door exists, the door that we're talking about. That's why I'm saying

[Speaker 7] (27:42 - 27:42)
'Cause

[Speaker 3] (27:42 - 27:42)
I think

[Speaker 7] (27:42 - 27:43)
that basement

[Speaker 3] (27:43 - 27:43)
it's two

[Speaker 7] (27:43 - 27:44)
door is not shown here either.

[Speaker 7] (27:45 - 27:47)
That's that's the first floor and it's

[Speaker 3] (27:47 - 27:48)
And

[Speaker 7] (27:48 - 27:48)
the basement

[Speaker 3] (27:48 - 27:50)
that's the part, that's what's also confusing. I don't know if

[Speaker 7] (27:50 - 27:50)
Oh,

[Speaker 3] (27:50 - 27:50)
there's yeah. a base.

[Speaker 7] (27:50 - 27:51)
Yeah, now it's there.

[Speaker 8] (27:51 - 27:51)
Yeah,

[Speaker 7] (27:51 - 27:51)
Yeah

[Speaker 8] (27:51 - 27:52)
the basement doors in the main

[Speaker 3] (27:52 - 27:52)
Yeah.

[Speaker 8] (27:52 - 27:53)
house, correct?

[Speaker 3] (27:53 - 27:54)
So, so

[Speaker 8] (27:54 - 27:54)
The

[Speaker 3] (27:54 - 27:54)
it's

[Speaker 8] (27:54 - 27:55)
basement is in the main house.

[Speaker 7] (27:55 - 27:55)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (27:55 - 27:57)
The basement doors in the main house.

[Speaker 1] (27:57 - 27:57)
Correct, yes,

[Speaker 3] (27:57 - 27:58)
Correct.

[Speaker 1] (27:58 - 27:58)
that that

[Speaker 3] (27:58 - 28:05)
So the door we're talking about is on the garage, and that's the one that is really an amendment to our previous approval.

[Speaker 3] (28:05 - 28:09)
And I think that these are two separate things, the next piece of it.

[Speaker 3] (28:09 - 28:23)
feels like it's now we need to do a site plan special permit for a ramp if we decide that a handicapped ramp requires that but even if the handicapped lamp doesn't the retaining wall does

[Speaker 2] (28:23 - 28:23)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (28:23 - 28:25)
Well, the retaining, it's not a retaining wall.

[Speaker 1] (28:25 - 28:27)
It is the base of the ramp.

[Speaker 8] (28:30 - 28:30)
B.

[Speaker 1] (28:30 - 28:33)
The ramp is, the wall is going to

[Speaker 3] (28:33 - 28:33)
The

[Speaker 1] (28:33 - 28:33)
have,

[Speaker 3] (28:33 - 28:34)
wall is

[Speaker 1] (28:34 - 28:34)
the

[Speaker 3] (28:34 - 28:34)
the ramp,

[Speaker 1] (28:34 - 28:35)
wall is the ramp,

[Speaker 3] (28:35 - 28:35)
the

[Speaker 1] (28:35 - 28:35)
yes.

[Speaker 3] (28:35 - 28:36)
wall is the ramp.

[Speaker 1] (28:36 - 28:38)
Wall is the ramp. There's no retaining wall,

[Speaker 1] (28:38 - 28:40)
no earth is being held.

[Speaker 3] (28:40 - 28:41)
Okay.

[Speaker 3] (28:41 - 28:44)
So I think that's sort of, I'm trying to get my head around what

[Speaker 8] (28:44 - 28:45)
Yeah, but

[Speaker 3] (28:45 - 28:45)
is our

[Speaker 8] (28:45 - 28:45)
I think

[Speaker 3] (28:45 - 28:45)
process

[Speaker 8] (28:45 - 28:45)
you're

[Speaker 3] (28:45 - 28:46)
right here. here.

[Speaker 8] (28:46 - 28:53)
Like there's three things, right? There's the door, there's the ramp, and there's the privacy.

[Speaker 3] (28:53 - 28:54)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (28:55 - 28:55)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (28:55 - 28:55)
And

[Speaker 2] (28:55 - 28:56)
Yeah.

[Speaker 8] (28:56 - 29:00)
I don't think we have much to say about the ramp.

[Speaker 2] (29:01 - 29:01)
No.

[Speaker 10] (29:02 - 29:04)
Well, I do have a question

[Speaker 8] (29:04 - 29:05)
on the ramp.

[Speaker 1] (29:05 - 29:05)
Yeah. Short.

[Speaker 8] (29:05 - 29:10)
And and that question is this. Um with

[Speaker 10] (29:10 - 29:10)
ADA

[Speaker 8] (29:13 - 29:19)
the designation like I I want to be careful that we don't think that when you need to put a ramp in

[Speaker 10] (29:19 - 29:20)
it can go anywhere.

[Speaker 3] (29:21 - 29:24)
Because I'm not sure that's the right interpretation of that law.

[Speaker 3] (29:25 - 29:34)
And that's the thing where I think that's what we need to balance here is we have a rec we need the access,

[Speaker 3] (29:35 - 29:42)
but we don't have plans that show us the topography to see if this ramp could be coming off of another

[Speaker 2] (29:42 - 29:42)
Right.

[Speaker 3] (29:42 - 29:43)
section of the house.

[Speaker 3] (29:44 - 29:48)
So I don't necessarily think that

[Speaker 1] (29:50 - 29:57)
Everything is overruled by that law. I think that law still has room for interpretation, but I am not an attorney.

[Speaker 1] (29:59 - 30:03)
Just to be clear, it's a m it's uh separate from A_D_A_ it's a Massachusetts

[Speaker 2] (30:03 - 30:04)
It's an M_A_A_

[Speaker 1] (30:04 - 30:04)
statute.

[Speaker 2] (30:04 - 30:04)
rule.

[Speaker 1] (30:05 - 30:05)
Okay.

[Speaker 3] (30:05 - 30:05)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (30:05 - 30:13)
I mean I can read it. Uh you know it's exempt from zoning regulation when it comes to setback, when it comes to open space, anything like that.

[Speaker 2] (30:13 - 30:16)
Yeah, but we don't even have a plan of the ramp to make sure it's

[Speaker 2] (30:15 - 30:18)
sure it's like the right grade and everything that

[Speaker 4] (30:18 - 30:18)
Well,

[Speaker 2] (30:18 - 30:18)
you know like

[Speaker 4] (30:18 - 30:20)
it's a residential ramp,

[Speaker 4] (30:20 - 30:30)
so I'm not even sure that that's, you know, it doesn't, there's a difference between your commercial ADA and your residential ramp used for access for a person with physical disabilities.

[Speaker 1] (30:33 - 30:43)
I'm thinking that maybe we can open it up to public comment and um particularly to see if I'm sorry I don't have your name if you're here I think it's Ms.

[Speaker 1] (30:45 - 30:48)
Gaffigan um apologies if that's incorrect.

[Speaker 2] (30:48 - 30:49)
Gosh,

[Speaker 1] (30:49 - 30:49)
you Um

[Speaker 2] (30:49 - 30:49)
did a good job.

[Speaker 1] (30:49 - 30:58)
but maybe we'll open up for for public comment and y you could speak first and um and then we can bring it back to the board and see what we wanna propose.

[Speaker 5] (30:58 - 31:01)
So can I just ask a quick question about the photo that's on the screen right now?

[Speaker 5] (31:02 - 31:02)
Um

[Speaker 1] (31:02 - 31:03)
Sure.

[Speaker 5] (31:03 - 31:12)
everybody can see that, right? Um that wall that that piece of what looks to be a wall down the centre, that's the edge of the ramp?

[Speaker 4] (31:12 - 31:12)
Yes,

[Speaker 5] (31:12 - 31:14)
So the ramp won't extend any further.

[Speaker 4] (31:15 - 31:16)
correct.

[Speaker 5] (31:16 - 31:19)
Is that also the property line, or is the property line between those two?

[Speaker 4] (31:19 - 31:24)
Nope. The property line is basically the wall on the left if you're looking at this photograph.

[Speaker 2] (31:25 - 31:25)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (31:26 - 31:39)
And this photograph is hard to grasp scale-wise. The dimension between the stonework and the lot line is...

[Speaker 4] (31:43 - 31:43)
So I is it

[Speaker 6] (31:43 - 31:43)
provided

[Speaker 4] (31:43 - 31:47)
showing somewhere here? So I provided a number of these measurements.

[Speaker 5] (31:49 - 31:52)
So I think the uh the variance was five point one feet.

[Speaker 4] (31:54 - 31:55)
Pardon me?

[Speaker 5] (31:55 - 31:57)
I have remember the variance being one f five

[Speaker 2] (31:57 - 31:57)
So

[Speaker 5] (31:57 - 31:57)
point

[Speaker 2] (31:57 - 31:59)
the setback, but that's it's really not that's

[Speaker 5] (31:59 - 32:00)
Yeah, but

[Speaker 2] (32:00 - 32:00)
not

[Speaker 5] (32:00 - 32:00)
that's

[Speaker 2] (32:00 - 32:00)
even

[Speaker 5] (32:00 - 32:02)
to the to the wall to So the house.

[Speaker 4] (32:02 - 32:05)
there's thirty inches toward the top at

[Speaker 4] (32:07 - 32:17)
The staircase that you can see, so it goes from thirty inches down to about eleven inches at the staircase. And so that's the area in which I had mentioned where you start to get uh the narrow space.

[Speaker 4] (32:18 - 32:19)
So

[Speaker 1] (32:21 - 32:37)
So what I'm what I'm also curious it is if if you were to come in with plantings in there that were were espaliered narrow to create some privacy in there so that it was following what we approved as a special plan permit uh site permit.

[Speaker 1] (32:37 - 32:49)
Um, would you be adding soil to do planting? 'Cause right now there's there's this like no man's land um is that to be filled and plantings would be able to go in there without that drop?

[Speaker 4] (32:49 - 32:52)
Yes, that's the s so that's what we had suggested is to fill it.

[Speaker 1] (32:52 - 32:53)
Okay,

[Speaker 4] (32:53 - 32:53)
Um and

[Speaker 1] (32:53 - 32:58)
and and that would elim eliminate the necessity for railings or anything else on

[Speaker 4] (32:58 - 33:00)
Well so we would still do a railing on the ramp

[Speaker 2] (33:00 - 33:01)
Have to do that.

[Speaker 1] (33:01 - 33:02)
for for for

[Speaker 4] (33:02 - 33:03)
For the L you would still

[Speaker 1] (33:03 - 33:04)
support not no

[Speaker 1] (33:04 - 33:06)
not to keep him from falling off.

[Speaker 4] (33:07 - 33:09)
Uh, I've I I guess I'm not sure f

[Speaker 1] (33:09 - 33:12)
A handrail versus a um

[Speaker 7] (33:12 - 33:12)
A barrier

[Speaker 2] (33:12 - 33:12)
A

[Speaker 7] (33:12 - 33:12)
over

[Speaker 2] (33:12 - 33:13)
barrier.

[Speaker 7] (33:13 - 33:13)
a fence

[Speaker 1] (33:13 - 33:13)
barrier.

[Speaker 7] (33:13 - 33:13)
type

[Speaker 4] (33:13 - 33:14)
Oh,

[Speaker 7] (33:14 - 33:14)
of thing.

[Speaker 4] (33:14 - 33:16)
yes. So yeah, this will be a handrail.

[Speaker 1] (33:16 - 33:16)
Okay.

[Speaker 4] (33:16 - 33:24)
Yes, and so the suggestion was to fill that in and then you have something that starts at about thirty feet width going down to just o uh just under a foot.

[Speaker 1] (33:25 - 33:25)
Thirty inch.

[Speaker 4] (33:25 - 33:26)
Thirty inches,

[Speaker 7] (33:26 - 33:26)
The

[Speaker 4] (33:26 - 33:26)
sorry.

[Speaker 7] (33:26 - 33:28)
the open space there, you're

[Speaker 4] (33:28 - 33:28)
Correct.

[Speaker 7] (33:28 - 33:29)
saying, yeah, okay.

[Speaker 1] (33:29 - 33:32)
Okay. And and a foot of planting that

[Speaker 1] (33:32 - 33:43)
There are options within that narrow of a planting area to potentially add green. So that's just information that's going to be helpful for us.

[Speaker 8] (33:43 - 33:48)
Okay. Alright, great. Let's open it up to public comment. Um and sorry, could you just state your name and address?

[Speaker 1] (33:51 - 33:52)
I think there's

[Speaker 7] (33:52 - 33:52)
We

[Speaker 1] (33:52 - 33:52)
a sign.

[Speaker 7] (33:52 - 33:53)
can't hear you.

[Speaker 9] (33:56 - 33:56)
Hello?

[Speaker 8] (33:56 - 33:56)
All

[Speaker 7] (33:56 - 33:56)
Oh,

[Speaker 9] (33:56 - 33:56)
Oh,

[Speaker 8] (33:56 - 33:57)
right,

[Speaker 7] (33:57 - 33:57)
that's

[Speaker 8] (33:57 - 33:57)
that works.

[Speaker 7] (33:57 - 33:57)
better.

[Speaker 9] (33:57 - 33:57)
hi.

[Speaker 7] (33:57 - 33:58)
Okay.

[Speaker 9] (33:58 - 34:04)
I'm Jennifer McGaffigan. I'm the resident at 48 Barnstable that is directly next door to 76.

[Speaker 9] (34:05 - 34:06)
I just want to be clear.

[Speaker 9] (34:07 - 34:17)
Everyone that I accept the family's stated accessibility need and I support the reasonable accommodation that allows Theo to access his home and backyard.

[Speaker 9] (34:17 - 34:21)
I think that's universal. My concern is not whether

[Speaker 9] (34:21 - 34:22)
That access should be provided,

[Speaker 9] (34:22 - 34:27)
but whether it can be provided in another way that reasonably protects both properties.

[Speaker 9] (34:27 - 34:40)
As you've mentioned, it's an extremely constrained area between those two houses at the moment. And I noticed their plot plan submitted shows substantially more clearance on the other side of the house,

[Speaker 9] (34:40 - 34:45)
which also leads to the backyard. And I would just like to request an appropriate professional.

[Speaker 9] (34:46 - 34:59)
assessment of whether that area or any less impactful configuration can provide the necessary accessibility route before the existing privacy protection established by the board is reduced.

[Speaker 9] (35:01 - 35:09)
I'm not saying I'm not a professional I'm not saying the ramp can or should go there I'm just asking that it's evaluated as an option.

[Speaker 9] (35:10 - 35:15)
um the photographs that were submitted, I think, by both parties um

[Speaker 9] (35:15 - 35:20)
Show the extremely confined construction area, um the direct window to window privacy impact,

[Speaker 5] (35:20 - 35:21)
Yeah.

[Speaker 9] (35:21 - 35:36)
um which is right where the landscaping would be restricted um in the close proximity of the commenced construction to my existing stone stairs and wall which are on the property line as noted before. Um so in addition to the alternative route evaluation,

[Speaker 9] (35:37 - 35:42)
I just wanted the board to request a a construction plan for the ramp. I mean, you guys have been talking about a little

[Speaker 9] (35:42 - 36:06)
a little bit, but I haven't seen anything of how the ramp is built and the design of it and the measurements um and a professional landscaping plan demonstrating um what is possible to put in that area. Um we're talking about some ideas, but nothing about species and the planting space and how it will grow and um it just seems a little vague.

[Speaker 9] (36:07 - 36:31)
Um and also because of the proximity um to each other I just want to request a professional engineering review um of the retaining wall or not the retaining wall I guess the base of the ramp um as he said at one point I think it comes within 11 inches of my um structure um so that is just reviewed the excavation the grading the drainage just to confirm um.

[Speaker 9] (36:32 - 36:39)
Given their proximity to my existing stairs that everything is copacetic and not damaging to my structure.

[Speaker 9] (36:41 - 36:47)
Overall, if the necessary accessibility can be provided while preserving the year-round greenery condition,

[Speaker 9] (36:49 - 36:53)
I think that should be considered before it is reduced.

[Speaker 9] (36:54 - 36:59)
Simply I'm just asking the board to determine whether both can be reasonably achieved.

[Speaker 9] (37:01 - 37:01)
Thank you.

[Speaker 8] (37:02 - 37:03)
Thank you.

[Speaker 8] (37:04 - 37:06)
Um does anyone have any questions?

[Speaker 8] (37:10 - 37:23)
Would the proposed um would the proposal uh for like well I I will put you on the spot. Um so I'll just move on to um is there any other um public comment?

[Speaker 10] (37:29 - 37:37)
Um my name is Ralph James. I live at eighty one Puritan Lane. Uh I came here for another matter, so this is the first I've heard of this.

[Speaker 10] (37:38 - 37:55)
But uh we have a daughter with with uh physical mobility issues. We build a house at eighty one Puritan Lane and took that into account. So my wife and I know first hand how important it is to have a place that the or child can

[Speaker 10] (37:56 - 38:03)
Get around and not be hindered by things that they don't need to be hindered by.

[Speaker 10] (38:03 - 38:06)
So, you know, within the rules,

[Speaker 10] (38:07 - 38:16)
I'm fully supportive of doing whatever we need to do to make sure that Theo has a life where he can thrive.

[Speaker 9] (38:36 - 38:38)
My name is Emily Barron. I'm Theo's mother,

[Speaker 9] (38:38 - 38:47)
and I just wanted to respond to the idea of a ramp going a different way to get Theo access to the backyard and basement.

[Speaker 9] (38:47 - 38:49)
And I think the...

[Speaker 9] (38:51 - 39:04)
Suggestion of a ramp going all the way around our house the other direction actually demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Theo's disability and his associated abilities,

[Speaker 9] (39:04 - 39:09)
asking him to go, you know, three to four times the distance.

[Speaker 11] (39:10 - 39:24)
to get to a place where he could reserve his energy and safely go only one quarter of the distance is actually a huge, hugely meaningful to what he, what he can do. Cerebral palsy not only impacts his stability,

[Speaker 11] (39:24 - 39:26)
his ability to walk and be mobile,

[Speaker 11] (39:26 - 39:35)
but it is also extremely taxing on his body. So anytime we require him to go an extra distance when he doesn't need to is

[Speaker 11] (39:37 - 39:40)
is working against what his body can do.

[Speaker 11] (39:40 - 39:44)
That's why he has a disability placard.

[Speaker 1] (39:56 - 39:57)
Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (39:57 - 39:57)
Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (40:02 - 40:09)
Um when I suggested that I didn't mean any disrespect to his disability or his mobility. Um

[Speaker 3] (40:09 - 40:29)
The suggestion came there's a door on that side, so it's hard to gauge what's possible and what's not possible. They have like two front doors, um and there's a porch on that side. So the idea was to, you know, when I spoke of it, not to have him go around the entire house, but to exit that side of the house and then that access to the backyard.

[Speaker 3] (40:29 - 40:31)
But again, as I said, I'm not a professional,

[Speaker 3] (40:32 - 40:34)
it was just a suggestion to have it evaluated.

[Speaker 4] (40:36 - 40:37)
Thank you.

[Speaker 4] (40:37 - 40:38)
Anyone else?

[Speaker 4] (40:40 - 40:40)
Okay,

[Speaker 4] (40:41 - 40:44)
with that I'll p close public comment and bring it back to the board.

[Speaker 4] (40:46 - 40:49)
Any comments from anyone else?

[Speaker 5] (40:51 - 41:00)
So I guess I I also agree that you know obviously access is a paramount priority that we don't have purview over allowing.

[Speaker 5] (41:02 - 41:17)
Um that has to you have say uh it looks like from the drawing with the red uh line on it that to make that height elevation they need two lengths of the building is that about right? So it can't just be a straight ramp it has to go around at least one

[Speaker 3] (41:17 - 41:17)
Yes,

[Speaker 5] (41:17 - 41:18)
corner to

[Speaker 3] (41:18 - 41:19)
it's going around this corner here.

[Speaker 5] (41:19 - 41:25)
And that door which was in the original plans but must have been conditioned out um

[Speaker 3] (41:27 - 41:27)
Yeah, I don't

[Speaker 5] (41:27 - 41:28)
Where

[Speaker 3] (41:28 - 41:28)
remember.

[Speaker 5] (41:28 - 41:31)
was that intended to go other than a ramp, I guess?

[Speaker 4] (41:32 - 41:33)
It was, that was going to be a window.

[Speaker 4] (41:34 - 41:34)
There was going to be a,

[Speaker 4] (41:34 - 41:37)
Jordan do you have, you know which, you referenced

[Speaker 3] (41:37 - 41:37)
I think

[Speaker 4] (41:37 - 41:37)
earlier

[Speaker 3] (41:37 - 41:37)
they in had

[Speaker 4] (41:37 - 41:38)
this as a plan

[Speaker 3] (41:38 - 41:38)
had a

[Speaker 4] (41:38 - 41:38)
that

[Speaker 3] (41:38 - 41:38)
conceptualization

[Speaker 4] (41:38 - 41:39)
showed something in

[Speaker 3] (41:39 - 41:39)
of

[Speaker 4] (41:39 - 41:40)
somewhere in

[Speaker 3] (41:40 - 41:40)
where

[Speaker 4] (41:40 - 41:40)
here,

[Speaker 3] (41:40 - 41:40)
but

[Speaker 4] (41:40 - 41:41)
somewhere in here.

[Speaker 3] (41:41 - 41:43)
then it was recommended to them.

[Speaker 5] (41:43 - 41:46)
And then where did the, where did the, where's that door go just to

[Speaker 3] (41:46 - 41:46)
Well,

[Speaker 5] (41:46 - 41:46)
the stairs?

[Speaker 3] (41:46 - 41:52)
I mean, I think at that time, you know, I'm guessing that at that time is when the

[Speaker 3] (41:53 - 41:56)
when the contractor suggested uh or whoever was building

[Speaker 6] (41:57 - 42:07)
suggested that they swap out the door the window for a door you know that I'm I'm taking a guess here that the idea was to create a ramp down here.

[Speaker 5] (42:07 - 42:07)
Yeah.

[Speaker 6] (42:07 - 42:07)
However

[Speaker 5] (42:07 - 42:08)
Okay,

[Speaker 6] (42:08 - 42:08)
it was

[Speaker 5] (42:08 - 42:08)
in 2020,

[Speaker 6] (42:08 - 42:09)
not part of the big

[Speaker 5] (42:09 - 42:11)
2023, the door was there,

[Speaker 5] (42:11 - 42:13)
and then it must have been moved by the time we

[Speaker 7] (42:13 - 42:13)
No,

[Speaker 5] (42:13 - 42:14)
uh

[Speaker 7] (42:14 - 42:14)
I don't

[Speaker 5] (42:14 - 42:14)
we

[Speaker 7] (42:14 - 42:14)
know. The

[Speaker 5] (42:14 - 42:14)
were door doing it.

[Speaker 7] (42:14 - 42:16)
was never moved. That's that's an addition,

[Speaker 5] (42:16 - 42:16)
So

[Speaker 7] (42:16 - 42:18)
and so under construction they made

[Speaker 5] (42:18 - 42:18)
your

[Speaker 7] (42:18 - 42:19)
a design

[Speaker 5] (42:19 - 42:19)
design

[Speaker 7] (42:19 - 42:19)
shift.

[Speaker 5] (42:19 - 42:20)
change, I'm sorry.

[Speaker 6] (42:20 - 42:20)
Right.

[Speaker 7] (42:20 - 42:20)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (42:20 - 42:21)
So

[Speaker 6] (42:21 - 42:21)
So that was a

[Speaker 7] (42:21 - 42:22)
real Oh, in the plan. Sorry.

[Speaker 5] (42:22 - 42:23)
So it was not in the plan.

[Speaker 6] (42:23 - 42:24)
we have

[Speaker 5] (42:23 - 42:26)
be approved and not the plans we approve

[Speaker 6] (42:26 - 42:26)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (42:26 - 42:34)
so that's where I'm stuck I certainly believe that you know we can come to we can figure this out it's not going to be we're not going to prevent this

[Speaker 5] (42:35 - 42:36)
child from accessing

[Speaker 6] (42:36 - 42:36)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (42:36 - 42:37)
his property.

[Speaker 6] (42:37 - 42:37)
Correct.

[Speaker 5] (42:37 - 42:42)
We just have to figure out how to make it and preserve our process in the meantime.

[Speaker 6] (42:42 - 42:42)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (42:42 - 42:45)
So we reviewed a plan that had a door.

[Speaker 5] (42:45 - 42:48)
We must have either conditioned that the door be removed

[Speaker 6] (42:48 - 42:49)
No, we didn't, we didn't do

[Speaker 5] (42:49 - 42:49)
or

[Speaker 6] (42:49 - 42:50)
it with the door.

[Speaker 5] (42:50 - 42:51)
that somebody did.

[Speaker 6] (42:51 - 42:57)
Yeah. We, we, the plan that we approved did not have a door. So what we need to do now because the door is built.

[Speaker 6] (42:58 - 43:09)
And they revised plans, they didn't come back to the board to do it. What we need to do is formally amend the plan to look like this, to look like the revision.

[Speaker 5] (43:09 - 43:09)
Sorry,

[Speaker 6] (43:09 - 43:09)
Am

[Speaker 5] (43:09 - 43:10)
or

[Speaker 6] (43:10 - 43:10)
I understanding

[Speaker 5] (43:10 - 43:10)
that was a setback,

[Speaker 6] (43:10 - 43:11)
that correctly?

[Speaker 5] (43:11 - 43:11)
and you're having

[Speaker 6] (43:11 - 43:11)
We

[Speaker 4] (43:11 - 43:11)
to Because that

[Speaker 6] (43:11 - 43:12)
we

[Speaker 5] (43:12 - 43:12)
was look.

[Speaker 6] (43:12 - 43:12)
need to conform.

[Speaker 4] (43:12 - 43:13)
that stayed existing and the

[Speaker 6] (43:13 - 43:15)
No, the door's already there. This is built.

[Speaker 4] (43:15 - 43:20)
It's there build. This it sure just showed me this. This is what was approved and this is what

[Speaker 6] (43:20 - 43:20)
was Right.

[Speaker 4] (43:20 - 43:20)
built.

[Speaker 6] (43:20 - 43:22)
So that was approved, okay.

[Speaker 5] (43:22 - 43:22)
So

[Speaker 6] (43:22 - 43:24)
And then when they were building it

[Speaker 6] (43:25 - 43:29)
The builder said, you know, this would be the best place for a door out of the garage, and

[Speaker 5] (43:29 - 43:29)
No,

[Speaker 6] (43:29 - 43:30)
then you could wrap around the

[Speaker 5] (43:30 - 43:30)
I

[Speaker 6] (43:30 - 43:30)
side of

[Speaker 5] (43:30 - 43:31)
agree 100

[Speaker 6] (43:31 - 43:31)
the house.

[Speaker 5] (43:31 - 43:35)
% that's a good place for a door, except for the variance

[Speaker 6] (43:35 - 43:35)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (43:35 - 43:38)
that puts them already within five feet of the property line.

[Speaker 5] (43:38 - 43:39)
So, again,

[Speaker 6] (43:39 - 43:40)
Well, the variance we,

[Speaker 6] (43:40 - 43:42)
it's

[Speaker 5] (43:42 - 43:42)
it's

[Speaker 6] (43:42 - 43:42)
irrelevant.

[Speaker 5] (43:42 - 43:44)
just a process thing.

[Speaker 6] (43:44 - 43:44)
Yeah,

[Speaker 5] (43:44 - 43:50)
I'm not super hung up on it, but I just think we need to be mindful of the fact that a plan comes to us for approval.

[Speaker 6] (43:50 - 43:50)
I agree,

[Speaker 4] (43:50 - 43:51)
Yeah,

[Speaker 5] (43:51 - 43:51)
building,

[Speaker 6] (43:51 - 43:51)
and

[Speaker 4] (43:51 - 43:51)
I think

[Speaker 6] (43:51 - 43:51)
that's

[Speaker 4] (43:51 - 43:51)
that's

[Speaker 6] (43:51 - 43:51)
what,

[Speaker 4] (43:51 - 43:52)
I

[Speaker 6] (43:52 - 44:01)
that's part of what they're asking for, is that we amend, that we amend our decision to reflect this plan that was actually built.

[Speaker 6] (44:03 - 44:05)
So that it's formally approved.

[Speaker 6] (44:06 - 44:07)
That's one thing.

[Speaker 5] (44:07 - 44:15)
Right, but if that door were relocated to the back corner, then a switch-back ramp could go in the back wall and then we wouldn't have the problem with the screening.

[Speaker 6] (44:18 - 44:18)
And that's adding

[Speaker 4] (44:18 - 44:21)
Well, I don't know if there's enough space to switch back.

[Speaker 6] (44:21 - 44:24)
Right. That's 'cause the door the other p house is right here. So

[Speaker 4] (44:24 - 44:24)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (44:24 - 44:25)
No, on this.

[Speaker 3] (44:25 - 44:27)
The door's swinging into the right.

[Speaker 3] (44:27 - 44:27)
The ramp,

[Speaker 3] (44:27 - 44:27)
right.

[Speaker 6] (44:27 - 44:29)
So what are you talking about, the door

[Speaker 3] (44:29 - 44:29)
So

[Speaker 6] (44:29 - 44:29)
here?

[Speaker 3] (44:29 - 44:29)
he can't use

[Speaker 6] (44:29 - 44:29)
Oh,

[Speaker 3] (44:29 - 44:30)
the front door.

[Speaker 6] (44:30 - 44:33)
well the it's from it's coming out of the garage, which is right here.

[Speaker 5] (44:33 - 44:34)
That door was never there.

[Speaker 6] (44:35 - 44:35)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (44:35 - 44:35)
So that's a new

[Speaker 3] (44:35 - 44:36)
He can't

[Speaker 5] (44:36 - 44:36)
a new

[Speaker 3] (44:36 - 44:36)
even use that.

[Speaker 3] (44:36 - 44:37)
Rack.

[Speaker 6] (44:37 - 44:39)
Right. So all we need to do, but we

[Speaker 5] (44:39 - 44:39)
The.

[Speaker 6] (44:39 - 44:41)
but that's the ramp is in our

[Speaker 5] (44:42 - 44:51)
If that if that door can't be relocated the switchback ramp then we've got to come up with another clever solution so that the property next door has adequate screening that's

[Speaker 5] (44:52 - 44:54)
Amenable to both both both people.

[Speaker 5] (44:54 - 44:55)
Oh, sorry.

[Speaker 4] (44:55 - 44:55)
Yeah,

[Speaker 5] (44:55 - 44:55)
Sorry.

[Speaker 4] (44:55 - 44:57)
so I'll just say what I'm thinking.

[Speaker 4] (44:58 - 45:00)
the board can take it or not.

[Speaker 3] (45:00 - 45:01)
Okay.

[Speaker 4] (45:01 - 45:20)
I agree, I don't think it makes sense to move the ramp or anything like that. I don't think that we need to do an assessment around that and I um I think sure you're probably right, there's probably some I don't know that it's totally correct that that statue um allows ramps in all cases, but I'm willing I'm willing to like just

[Speaker 7] (45:20 - 45:20)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (45:20 - 45:21)
concede

[Speaker 7] (45:21 - 45:21)
And

[Speaker 4] (45:21 - 45:21)
the point.

[Speaker 7] (45:21 - 45:23)
just a quick review of this that's

[Speaker 7] (45:23 - 45:33)
There really is not another logical place for a ramp. Your ramp would be running across windows, it would there's a there's a lot of of problems with with that.

[Speaker 4] (45:33 - 45:43)
Yeah. Um and like I said before I don't have a problem with the the the door. The the biggest problem that I have is just that you know we can't be like a a um

[Speaker 4] (45:44 - 45:51)
Like an ask for forgiveness board and, you know, in all instances, regardless of the situations,

[Speaker 4] (45:52 - 45:56)
we do have to, you know, take into account all of the property rights of a butter.

[Speaker 4] (45:56 - 46:09)
So, you know, if it was up to me, I would suggest that maybe we get like a landscaping plan that can show us some sort of like satisfactory screening that, you know, we think is reasonable.

[Speaker 4] (46:10 - 46:24)
Uh given the circumstances that, you know, provides some evidence that there's not gonna be drainage issues and and that sort of thing um and that we, you know, could then review that um because

[Speaker 4] (46:25 - 46:38)
You know, I think to your point, Jer, there's there's really three things here. It's the door, it's the landscaping, and it's the ramp. The ramp I don't think is really in our purview. We're okay with one, I think the screening is really the biggest

[Speaker 6] (46:38 - 46:38)
Right.

[Speaker 4] (46:38 - 46:39)
issue.

[Speaker 6] (46:39 - 46:50)
And I think we do need to have some sort of an idea of the construction of the ramp, just so we understand heights and relative height to, you know, the neighbour and so forth. So and not because we have any say on

[Speaker 6] (46:51 - 46:51)
So

[Speaker 4] (46:51 - 46:51)
Yeah.

[Speaker 6] (46:51 - 46:52)
the righteousness

[Speaker 5] (46:52 - 46:52)
Could I

[Speaker 6] (46:52 - 46:52)
of

[Speaker 4] (46:52 - 46:53)
well it still

[Speaker 6] (46:53 - 46:53)
the ramp

[Speaker 4] (46:53 - 46:53)
impact

[Speaker 6] (46:53 - 46:54)
or not.

[Speaker 4] (46:54 - 46:54)
the the

[Speaker 6] (46:54 - 46:54)
Right.

[Speaker 4] (46:54 - 46:57)
however the landscape plan interacts with the ramp

[Speaker 6] (46:57 - 46:57)
Right.

[Speaker 4] (46:57 - 46:57)
is

[Speaker 5] (46:57 - 46:57)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (46:57 - 46:58)
with Erica.

[Speaker 5] (46:58 - 47:01)
Could I make a further suggestion? So we're seeking solutions here, right?

[Speaker 5] (47:01 - 47:07)
So moving the ramp was the first suggestion. I agree that's a heavy lift.

[Speaker 5] (47:08 - 47:14)
Is it amenable to fill that whole area with with fill and not have that height distance?

[Speaker 7] (47:14 - 47:14)
It's it's

[Speaker 5] (47:14 - 47:15)
And

[Speaker 7] (47:15 - 47:16)
not possible because

[Speaker 5] (47:16 - 47:17)
it's not yeah.

[Speaker 7] (47:17 - 47:22)
if you look at these these photographs and this is why we really need to have a plan.

[Speaker 3] (47:22 - 47:23)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 7] (47:23 - 47:33)
The discrepancy is measured in feet from the top of the ramp to when the stairs cut in when it's up where there's a concrete.

[Speaker 7] (47:33 - 47:45)
concrete wall there's there they can fill that in and follow that but as soon as a concrete wall stops and the stairs continue open there's no way to do it so so

[Speaker 5] (47:45 - 47:45)
They'd there have to,

[Speaker 7] (47:45 - 47:45)
is

[Speaker 5] (47:45 - 47:46)
they have

[Speaker 7] (47:46 - 47:46)
a

[Speaker 5] (47:46 - 47:46)
to

[Speaker 7] (47:46 - 47:47)
rail system that needs to

[Speaker 5] (47:47 - 47:48)
Yeah. But not they'd have to

[Speaker 7] (47:48 - 47:48)
only

[Speaker 5] (47:48 - 47:48)
have an retaining wall.

[Speaker 7] (47:48 - 47:52)
be there for mobility it has to be there for public safety

[Speaker 3] (47:52 - 47:52)
False

[Speaker 7] (47:52 - 47:53)
because

[Speaker 3] (47:53 - 47:53)
false.

[Speaker 3] (47:53 - 47:54)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (47:54 - 47:57)
um it's going oak clearly over the two foot

[Speaker 7] (47:58 - 48:13)
limit um for so it it's gonna be looking at, you know, a four four inch spacing, full handrail um heights, all of that, which isn't documented which is gonna need to be documented for the building department.

[Speaker 4] (48:13 - 48:13)
Right.

[Speaker 7] (48:13 - 48:24)
For us I think the main things we need is to see what the topography is here, what these elevation changes and then how that um I think what it would be is your

[Speaker 7] (48:25 - 48:40)
Your soil level would follow the wall that's on the lot line and then it would follow this the adjacent staircase down um and then but it we really need a plan that is showing the

[Speaker 5] (48:40 - 48:40)
Right,

[Speaker 7] (48:40 - 48:40)
location

[Speaker 5] (48:40 - 48:40)
and they,

[Speaker 7] (48:40 - 48:43)
of the house the location of the stairs the location of the ramp

[Speaker 6] (48:43 - 48:44)
and the change in elevation.

[Speaker 7] (48:44 - 48:46)
and the change in elevation in

[Speaker 5] (48:46 - 48:46)
and

[Speaker 7] (48:46 - 48:46)
order

[Speaker 5] (48:46 - 48:46)
you would need,

[Speaker 7] (48:46 - 48:47)
for you'd it

[Speaker 5] (48:47 - 48:48)
need also a, a, um.

[Speaker 5] (48:49 - 48:52)
a retaining wall to extend past that concrete

[Speaker 7] (48:52 - 48:53)
No,

[Speaker 5] (48:53 - 48:53)
wall.

[Speaker 7] (48:53 - 48:56)
there does not need to be a retaining wall because

[Speaker 3] (48:56 - 48:57)
We're already above.

[Speaker 7] (48:57 - 48:59)
it's already above,

[Speaker 7] (48:59 - 49:01)
but the edge of that,

[Speaker 7] (49:01 - 49:04)
the edge of the ramp itself,

[Speaker 7] (49:04 - 49:12)
the soil is going to start out adjacent to it, but when it drops then it's going to drop down with the stairs because that retaining wall travels a distance.

[Speaker 4] (49:13 - 49:18)
Um where you see the brick on the top and then it drops and turns into steps so that the

[Speaker 6] (49:18 - 49:18)
Right.

[Speaker 4] (49:18 - 49:21)
the level is gonna be dictated by those stairs and

[Speaker 6] (49:21 - 49:22)
I

[Speaker 4] (49:22 - 49:22)
it needs

[Speaker 6] (49:22 - 49:22)
see that

[Speaker 4] (49:22 - 49:33)
to be drop. below those stairs because otherwise the dirt will flow onto the stairs. But it is it's a case where we're analysing photographs. We this is not documentation

[Speaker 5] (49:33 - 49:33)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (49:33 - 49:39)
that can be submitted to the city or the town. We we need a plan in this area.

[Speaker 2] (49:40 - 49:41)
We have retaining

[Speaker 1] (49:41 - 49:42)
we can say

[Speaker 2] (49:42 - 49:42)
walls?

[Speaker 1] (49:42 - 49:43)
we understand

[Speaker 2] (49:43 - 49:43)
Yes.

[Speaker 3] (49:44 - 49:44)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (49:44 - 49:44)
I mean you're

[Speaker 4] (49:44 - 49:45)
Yeah, so you

[Speaker 1] (49:45 - 49:45)
not guessing

[Speaker 4] (49:45 - 49:45)
could have retaining

[Speaker 1] (49:45 - 49:45)
about it.

[Speaker 4] (49:45 - 50:00)
walls to shore up. I'm I'm proposing get rid of that that wall there or and fill it with soil and that would go right up against the neighbor's soil. So the whole alleyway would be a hill, a downward slope and the ramp could sit

[Speaker 4] (50:01 - 50:07)
On top of that, but it would give you soil to the left of that wall, so that you could have the sufficient room for the plant.

[Speaker 1] (50:08 - 50:13)
What's really hard to see in this in this photograph though is this stone wall that's at the base of the ramp

[Speaker 1] (50:14 - 50:19)
ends up at a height that looks like it could be four feet higher than the adjacent slabs.

[Speaker 5] (50:19 - 50:19)
Right.

[Speaker 5] (50:19 - 50:22)
Can you go from below, Chris? There's a photo of, yeah, that one.

[Speaker 1] (50:22 - 50:24)
Yeah. And then yeah, can you find

[Speaker 6] (50:24 - 50:24)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (50:24 - 50:26)
right there where the arrow is,

[Speaker 6] (50:26 - 50:26)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (50:26 - 50:35)
you'll see how much higher that appears to be than the stairs. Again, we're they're they're photographs, and it's it's hard because they're they're flattened out.

[Speaker 6] (50:36 - 50:37)
Yeah.

[Speaker 6] (50:37 - 50:38)
Got it.

[Speaker 5] (50:39 - 50:42)
I think what we're saying is we just need a plan.

[Speaker 7] (50:42 - 50:42)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (50:42 - 50:43)
Shows the ramp.

[Speaker 8] (50:43 - 50:44)
Yeah.

[Speaker 7] (50:44 - 50:57)
Yeah, so we c in uh and essentially it would be a a landscape plan and it would show, you know, we then we would need to also write something, uh you'd have to write a decision that said we would accept this change and accept it as a revision.

[Speaker 8] (50:58 - 51:00)
Yeah, I think it would be these plans plus a

[Speaker 8] (51:01 - 51:02)
landscape plan

[Speaker 7] (51:02 - 51:02)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (51:02 - 51:03)
that shows the

[Speaker 7] (51:03 - 51:03)
Exactly.

[Speaker 8] (51:03 - 51:04)
grading and

[Speaker 7] (51:04 - 51:04)
And

[Speaker 8] (51:04 - 51:04)
the then plantings.

[Speaker 7] (51:04 - 51:07)
we'd have to make two they're two separate decisions, or you could combine

[Speaker 4] (51:07 - 51:08)
They no combine

[Speaker 7] (51:08 - 51:08)
them I suppose.

[Speaker 1] (51:08 - 51:13)
I don't think we can call this a revision because this is an addition.

[Speaker 1] (51:13 - 51:14)
This is an this

[Speaker 5] (51:14 - 51:14)
Mm

[Speaker 1] (51:14 - 51:14)
is

[Speaker 5] (51:14 - 51:14)
-mm.

[Speaker 1] (51:14 - 51:15)
a second.

[Speaker 4] (51:16 - 51:16)
Second

[Speaker 1] (51:16 - 51:18)
This is a second application.

[Speaker 1] (51:19 - 51:30)
Um because we're not amending something, 'cause it didn't exist, it wasn't it wasn't as they presented, it wasn't in the plan and left out, it didn't exist. So this is a new plan, it's as if I've decided to

[Speaker 7] (51:30 - 51:31)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 1] (51:31 - 51:34)
um to build something on a lot. I

[Speaker 7] (51:34 - 51:34)
Oh, we're saying

[Speaker 8] (51:34 - 51:35)
Do we

[Speaker 7] (51:35 - 51:36)
the same thing, I'm just kind of, you know.

[Speaker 8] (51:36 - 51:40)
Is that right though? Is it an amendment or is it a whole new application?

[Speaker 5] (51:41 - 51:43)
The door's probably an amendment and the

[Speaker 9] (51:50 - 51:52)
So it's um like individual application numbers.

[Speaker 8] (51:52 - 51:53)
Okay, fine.

[Speaker 9] (51:53 - 51:56)
So moving forward, you know, it could be a a new approval potentially.

[Speaker 8] (51:56 - 51:57)
Okay.

[Speaker 8] (51:57 - 51:57)
Okay, fine.

[Speaker 1] (51:58 - 51:58)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (52:00 - 52:00)
Um

[Speaker 7] (52:00 - 52:02)
You have to apply all over again and

[Speaker 1] (52:02 - 52:04)
I just have a obvi a quick question. The

[Speaker 8] (52:04 - 52:04)
I don't

[Speaker 1] (52:04 - 52:04)
door

[Speaker 8] (52:04 - 52:05)
think we have

[Speaker 1] (52:05 - 52:05)
swing

[Speaker 8] (52:05 - 52:05)
to do that,

[Speaker 1] (52:05 - 52:05)
on

[Speaker 8] (52:05 - 52:06)
yeah.

[Speaker 1] (52:06 - 52:09)
the door that was put in, does it swing out or does it swing in? Because

[Speaker 8] (52:09 - 52:09)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (52:09 - 52:11)
as it's drawn it will block the ramp.

[Speaker 8] (52:11 - 52:12)
Yeah.

[Speaker 8] (52:12 - 52:12)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (52:16 - 52:17)
Hello.

[Speaker 8] (52:17 - 52:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (52:17 - 52:17)
Okay.

[Speaker 5] (52:17 - 52:18)
There you go.

[Speaker 10] (52:18 - 52:27)
I don't remember. When it was inspected, we were asked to take the doorknob off and tape the door. So I don't even know if it's been opened in two years.

[Speaker 1] (52:28 - 52:28)
Okay.

[Speaker 8] (52:29 - 52:29)
Um

[Speaker 1] (52:29 - 52:38)
Because it it just makes sure it swings in because otherwise you're going to have a very difficult time because you're transferring and getting out there. The door as it's drawn in the architect's

[Speaker 5] (52:38 - 52:39)
You're going to plan have to back up.

[Speaker 7] (52:39 - 52:39)
It swings

[Speaker 1] (52:39 - 52:39)
Yeah.

[Speaker 7] (52:39 - 52:40)
out.

[Speaker 5] (52:40 - 52:40)
and shut the

[Speaker 7] (52:40 - 52:40)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (52:40 - 52:40)
scanner.

[Speaker 1] (52:40 - 52:42)
It's not how you want that door hung.

[Speaker 7] (52:42 - 52:42)
Right.

[Speaker 10] (52:42 - 52:43)
Thank you.

[Speaker 5] (52:43 - 52:43)
Yeah.

[Speaker 10] (52:44 - 52:48)
Also, just, you know, you're throwing around four feet before the wall,

[Speaker 10] (52:49 - 52:51)
the base of the ramp doesn't get to four feet,

[Speaker 10] (52:51 - 52:56)
which was one of the letters that were written to the town about a lack of permitting.

[Speaker 10] (52:57 - 53:14)
It didn't get to four feet, and my understanding is that when you're doing a ramp off of a stone base, you'll actually do the permitting once you have the stone base set so you can put the specifications of what the ramp looks like in your permit application. But it didn't get to four feet, which is why it didn't need permitting or

[Speaker 1] (53:14 - 53:22)
So at the at the base of the house it's closer to the how do you know what the the level off the ground I picked four feet because I'm looking at the graphs and guessing.

[Speaker 10] (53:22 - 53:28)
L m I beli I believe that it's um so if four feet is forty I think it's forty inches

[Speaker 10] (53:30 - 53:32)
so that would be three feet three three

[Speaker 8] (53:32 - 53:32)
Okay.

[Speaker 10] (53:32 - 53:32)
foot four.

[Speaker 8] (53:32 - 53:34)
Okay. Still high.

[Speaker 1] (53:34 - 53:38)
So I think with with that it still needs to be railed for safety and so forth. It

[Speaker 10] (53:38 - 53:39)
Yes, so it it will certainly

[Speaker 8] (53:39 - 53:39)
Okay.

[Speaker 10] (53:39 - 53:40)
be railed.

[Speaker 8] (53:40 - 53:40)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (53:41 - 54:03)
But it p what I'm talking about there is the fact that there's a discrepancy, we were talking up at the top where there's the concrete wall that you could follow grey and keep that nice and even, it's easy planting, it's not a draw, but when it the wall ends and you're just with stairs on your neighbour's property, that needs to follow the stairs, because if we try to follow that then the soil will run onto the stairs.

[Speaker 8] (54:05 - 54:08)
So I think we're generally on the same page.

[Speaker 7] (54:08 - 54:08)
Okay.

[Speaker 8] (54:08 - 54:09)
Um

[Speaker 1] (54:09 - 54:09)
Generally.

[Speaker 8] (54:09 - 54:13)
do you feel like you have enough direction from us?

[Speaker 10] (54:13 - 54:17)
So I'll just, I guess, repeat back to make sure I understand if that's okay.

[Speaker 7] (54:17 - 54:17)
Okay.

[Speaker 10] (54:17 - 54:20)
So we'd like a landscape plan,

[Speaker 10] (54:20 - 54:27)
I think is the best way to put it, or how it falls into this, that would show the fill between the...

[Speaker 10] (54:28 - 54:35)
difference between the topography and the elevations based on when it turns from wall to stairs and then

[Speaker 10] (54:36 - 54:44)
in that plan also the the elevations and the specific plantings is that is that did I understand correctly?

[Speaker 8] (54:44 - 54:45)
I

[Speaker 4] (54:45 - 54:45)
I think

[Speaker 8] (54:45 - 54:46)
think that's right, yeah.

[Speaker 5] (54:46 - 54:47)
And the ramp shown,

[Speaker 7] (54:47 - 54:47)
I

[Speaker 5] (54:47 - 54:47)
like how

[Speaker 7] (54:47 - 55:01)
think it should show the ramp and with the you know as close to the specifications as to the you know the the angles and the width and get it precise and and also have a footprint of your neighbor's house so we can really see what's there.

[Speaker 7] (55:01 - 55:01)
There.

[Speaker 10] (55:02 - 55:09)
Okay. Um, as far as the ramp is not, you know, the base is not currently completed yet, so not everything is

[Speaker 10] (55:10 - 55:12)
I guess quite literally set in stone.

[Speaker 9] (55:12 - 55:13)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (55:13 - 55:16)
But they should be able to know from the top to the bottom

[Speaker 7] (55:16 - 55:16)
Yeah, where it's

[Speaker 5] (55:16 - 55:16)
how to

[Speaker 7] (55:16 - 55:16)
going to

[Speaker 5] (55:16 - 55:16)
negotiate

[Speaker 7] (55:16 - 55:17)
go.

[Speaker 5] (55:17 - 55:26)
it. So they should be able to say we're going to do this and there may be a landing, I don't know, there may not be. But this idea of like where the landings fall, where the grade falls away and

[Speaker 10] (55:26 - 55:29)
Yeah, yeah, it it yeah, th that is

[Speaker 5] (55:29 - 55:29)
how

[Speaker 10] (55:29 - 55:29)
fine

[Speaker 5] (55:29 - 55:29)
it is relative

[Speaker 10] (55:29 - 55:29)
there.

[Speaker 5] (55:29 - 55:30)
to the stairs, that

[Speaker 1] (55:30 - 55:30)
I'm

[Speaker 5] (55:30 - 55:30)
kind of thing.

[Speaker 1] (55:30 - 55:34)
assuming there's a landing at the door, a landing at the corner

[Speaker 5] (55:34 - 55:34)
Corner

[Speaker 1] (55:34 - 55:34)
of the house,

[Speaker 5] (55:34 - 55:34)
probably.

[Speaker 1] (55:34 - 55:34)
they

[Speaker 7] (55:34 - 55:34)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (55:34 - 55:35)
can get the land flat,

[Speaker 1] (55:35 - 55:36)
you turn, you

[Speaker 5] (55:36 - 55:36)
And

[Speaker 1] (55:36 - 55:36)
can go

[Speaker 10] (55:36 - 55:36)
then like a landing.

[Speaker 1] (55:36 - 55:37)
up.

[Speaker 10] (55:37 - 55:37)
at the basement

[Speaker 8] (55:37 - 55:37)
The plan,

[Speaker 10] (55:37 - 55:38)
door.

[Speaker 8] (55:38 - 55:38)
yeah.

[Speaker 5] (55:38 - 55:38)
Yeah.

[Speaker 8] (55:38 - 55:39)
At the basement,

[Speaker 10] (55:39 - 55:39)
Yeah,

[Speaker 8] (55:39 - 55:39)
okay.

[Speaker 10] (55:39 - 55:39)
and it,

[Speaker 8] (55:39 - 55:39)
Yeah.

[Speaker 10] (55:39 - 55:46)
as far as the construction of the base, it probably got one stone in once you turn the corner,

[Speaker 5] (55:46 - 55:46)
Yeah.

[Speaker 10] (55:46 - 55:48)
so um

[Speaker 5] (55:48 - 55:53)
And they'll be able to show where the railings fall usually. When they do the plan they'll show that the railings on this side and

[Speaker 10] (55:53 - 55:54)
Okay.

[Speaker 4] (55:58 - 56:04)
And does it still need a fence on top of that or did we decide that's that's up to them I guess.

[Speaker 7] (56:04 - 56:05)
Let's part of the design

[Speaker 8] (56:05 - 56:05)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (56:05 - 56:06)
I think how they

[Speaker 8] (56:06 - 56:06)
Perfect.

[Speaker 7] (56:06 - 56:06)
choose to to

[Speaker 8] (56:06 - 56:07)
Perfect.

[Speaker 8] (56:07 - 56:07)
That good call.

[Speaker 7] (56:07 - 56:10)
rail that I think there might be some options.

[Speaker 8] (56:12 - 56:14)
Okay. Alright so I

[Speaker 7] (56:14 - 56:16)
So we need to make a motion then to

[Speaker 8] (56:17 - 56:22)
Yep we need to make a motion and I think what it should be is that it will be, you know,

[Speaker 8] (56:23 - 56:31)
A motion to continue, and we should just clarify that they can submit this as an amendment to this application,

[Speaker 7] (56:31 - 56:31)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (56:31 - 56:33)
you know, additional fees,

[Speaker 8] (56:33 - 56:34)
um,

[Speaker 7] (56:34 - 56:34)
Right.

[Speaker 8] (56:34 - 56:36)
just set it up that way and then

[Speaker 8] (56:37 - 56:41)
after you get that in we'll have the meeting and we'll just review it all the door and

[Speaker 7] (56:41 - 56:41)
Yep.

[Speaker 8] (56:41 - 56:43)
the landscaping as one thing

[Speaker 7] (56:43 - 56:55)
Yeah just show us right the same plan you have here at the door and then show us the landscaping and the sort of the engineering if you will or just the you know the elevation of that ramp and the measurements of it.

[Speaker 7] (56:55 - 57:02)
Under we understand it's not done yet, but there have to be you you got to sort of know what the slope's gonna be so.

[Speaker 10] (57:02 - 57:02)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (57:02 - 57:04)
But um and yeah.

[Speaker 4] (57:04 - 57:06)
So they come back here as EBA.

[Speaker 8] (57:07 - 57:07)
Back here.

[Speaker 7] (57:07 - 57:08)
Back here,

[Speaker 4] (57:08 - 57:08)
They

[Speaker 7] (57:08 - 57:08)
the site

[Speaker 4] (57:08 - 57:08)
for EBA

[Speaker 7] (57:08 - 57:08)
plan.

[Speaker 4] (57:08 - 57:09)
as well just a

[Speaker 7] (57:09 - 57:12)
They don't need to go to ZBA. Well the s the ramp is um

[Speaker 7] (57:14 - 57:18)
I mean according to K_ K_ K_ P_ I think we don't do anything about the ramp.

[Speaker 8] (57:18 - 57:18)
Yep.

[Speaker 7] (57:19 - 57:19)
'Kay.

[Speaker 8] (57:19 - 57:20)
Um is there a motion?

[Speaker 7] (57:21 - 57:24)
I'll make that motion and I'll say it again

[Speaker 1] (57:24 - 57:25)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (57:25 - 57:41)
that we had asked you to if we're going to continue this tonight and to our next meeting with the understanding that you will come back with a revised site plan that revision will be reviewed by us without prejudice meaning you won't be charged another application fee

[Speaker 7] (57:42 - 57:47)
and it should include the plans that you have here that are showing the door,

[Speaker 7] (57:47 - 58:01)
which is already built on site, to the exact specifications that it is built, you know, showing the door swinging in, showing and showing the general construction of the ramp in terms of the platform,

[Speaker 7] (58:01 - 58:03)
the angle of the ramp coming down,

[Speaker 7] (58:03 - 58:05)
where the landing would be,

[Speaker 7] (58:05 - 58:08)
and the angle of the ramp going down to your base.

[Speaker 7] (58:08 - 58:28)
to your basement door. Uh and included on that should be um whatever specific whatever specifications you have for railing and um also showing landscape. This can all be on one plan. You don't need to do separate stuff, put it all together as long as we can look at it and understand what we're looking at then we'll be good.

[Speaker 8] (58:28 - 58:29)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (58:29 - 58:30)
Um somebody needs to second

[Speaker 1] (58:30 - 58:31)
Is there a

[Speaker 7] (58:31 - 58:31)
that.

[Speaker 1] (58:31 - 58:31)
second?

[Speaker 1] (58:32 - 58:32)
It's not seconds.

[Speaker 1] (58:33 - 58:34)
Um all in favour?

[Speaker 5] (58:35 - 58:35)
I.

[Speaker 7] (58:35 - 58:36)
I.

[Speaker 1] (58:36 - 58:36)
I.

[Speaker 8] (58:36 - 58:36)
I.

[Speaker 1] (58:36 - 58:37)
Alright.

[Speaker 8] (58:37 - 58:37)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (58:37 - 58:37)
Good luck.

[Speaker 1] (58:37 - 58:38)
Thank you.

[Speaker 5] (58:38 - 58:38)
Yep.

[Speaker 10] (58:38 - 58:40)
Thank you very much.

[Speaker 8] (58:50 - 59:03)
Item number three on our uh sorry, item number four um on our agenda tonight is a public hearing for uh application twenty six dash thirteen at two ninety nine Salem Street.

[Speaker 8] (59:04 - 59:08)
And um do we have the applicant here?

[Speaker 8] (59:12 - 59:12)
Okay.

[Speaker 8] (59:13 - 59:19)
Um I think, you know, we have a lot of folks here, I assume, for this one tonight. So uh I'm gonna give

[Speaker 7] (59:19 - 59:20)
Don't know if I have.

[Speaker 8] (59:20 - 59:24)
ten minutes. Is that enough for an initial presentation? I'm gonna bring it back to the board for comments.

[Speaker 1] (59:33 - 59:33)
Uh

[Speaker 2] (59:33 - 59:33)
I don't know.

[Speaker 2] (59:34 - 59:34)
Just got one.

[Speaker 1] (59:37 - 59:38)
Alright, the floor is yours.

[Speaker 3] (59:40 - 59:46)
Thank you. Uh for the record, uh my name is Attorney Kenneth Schutzer. I'm here with a team of individuals

[Speaker 3] (59:46 - 1:00:11)
Uh, and I'll ex tell you who they are in their capacity and then you know just to expedite the process each one of them will will be providing you with the information relative to the the aspects of their presentation. Um to my right is uh Spencer Cassell, he's with the development team, the construction company of DeMuro Construction. Um he'll be responding to any questions with regard to that.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:11 - 1:00:16)
But the applicant is here. His name is attorney Lawrence De Marino.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:17 - 1:00:20)
He's the manager because the applicant is Glover LLC.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:22 - 1:00:29)
To my left is attorney Jerry D'Ambrosio, who will be doing the presentation. He has a PowerPoint for you.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:29 - 1:00:33)
Also to my left is Nancy O'Neill from his office.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:34 - 1:00:39)
As I said, my name is Ken Schutzer, and I'll be here as well.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:40 - 1:00:49)
At this point, just to help expedite the process, I think Mr. D'Ambrosio will start with the PowerPoint. Is that what you'd prefer to do?

[Speaker 4] (1:00:49 - 1:00:50)
Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:50 - 1:00:50)
Okay.

[Speaker 3] (1:00:52 - 1:01:00)
Thank you, members of the Planning Board. My name is Attorney Gerry D'Ambrosio. I am located at 185 Devonshire Street in Boston,

[Speaker 3] (1:01:00 - 1:01:00)
Massachusetts.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:01 - 1:01:08)
I serve as both general counsel, zoning counsel, as well as finance counsel for this investment group.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:09 - 1:01:16)
I have done probably over 100 large-scale projects in the greater Boston area over the last 10 years.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:16 - 1:01:20)
And I want to thank you for listening tonight.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:20 - 1:01:25)
I think the most expedited way of doing this is with a slideshow.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:25 - 1:01:28)
The first thing is the development team.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:28 - 1:01:34)
I want to thank Ken for introducing everyone who will be here to answer questions.

[Speaker 3] (1:01:35 - 1:01:38)
And sliding to the next slide,

[Speaker 3] (1:01:38 - 1:01:42)
we start with 299 Salem Street, the current conditions.

[Speaker 5] (1:01:47 - 1:01:53)
So I think this is a bird's eye view of what currently exists along this parcel,

[Speaker 5] (1:01:53 - 1:01:56)
which is a business parcel in the city of Salem.

[Speaker 5] (1:01:56 - 1:01:59)
Most importantly, the application, however,

[Speaker 5] (1:01:59 - 1:02:05)
has been submitted to this board under the Glover House Overlay District Zone.

[Speaker 5] (1:02:05 - 1:02:12)
And so it is our full intention that the plans that have been submitted to you have been submitted fully compliant.

[Speaker 5] (1:02:13 - 1:02:20)
with those requirements and is a project that would be a matter of right subject to this planning board's approval.

[Speaker 5] (1:02:21 - 1:02:38)
But in looking at the slide, it it it it gives a bird's eye view of uh of the current Glover House uh which uh I'm happy to say is uh preserved in this proposal. But in looking at uh the bird's eye view you'll see that there's a number of structures there that have been there for quite a long.

[Speaker 5] (1:02:38 - 1:03:04)
long time in going to the next if you look at the existing conditions this is more of an engineering plan showing the current existing conditions of the dwellings that are there I use that term lightly when I say dwelling because I think the next slide will give a more proper understanding of what's currently there

[Speaker 5] (1:03:04 - 1:03:07)
In my experience with land use,

[Speaker 5] (1:03:07 - 1:03:10)
these are mass general law chapter 40U sites.

[Speaker 5] (1:03:10 - 1:03:21)
This is this four acre area along the North Shore and I live on the North Shore is probably one of the more dilapidated four acre sites that I've ever seen.

[Speaker 5] (1:03:22 - 1:03:30)
And I think that as Nancy drives through and looking at what it currently is, it's a number of structures that are, to be quite frank,

[Speaker 5] (1:03:30 - 1:03:30)
horrific.

[Speaker 5] (1:03:31 - 1:03:36)
I think to say the least, they provide a public safety concern,

[Speaker 5] (1:03:37 - 1:03:41)
not only for people that may be trespassing and walking through the facility,

[Speaker 5] (1:03:41 - 1:03:42)
but surely,

[Speaker 5] (1:03:42 - 1:03:48)
absolutely surely provide a safety threat for the...

[Speaker 5] (1:03:48 - 1:03:55)
men and women of the Swampscott Fire Department if they ever had to respond here for purposes of a fire

[Speaker 5] (1:03:58 - 1:04:05)
I think what's also important about the dilapidated condition as a side note is that in wanting to save the Glover House,

[Speaker 5] (1:04:06 - 1:04:13)
the current conditions of the site clearly show that the Glover House is slowly wasting away.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:13 - 1:04:15)
Even if nothing is done on the site,

[Speaker 5] (1:04:15 - 1:04:18)
it's in such disrepair currently,

[Speaker 5] (1:04:19 - 1:04:23)
open to the elements, that the house itself is deteriorating to a point.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:24 - 1:04:31)
We are very soon, I'd suggest that your building commissioner is going to have almost no choice but to order it, that it be ripped down.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:31 - 1:04:34)
And that is just happening as a matter of nature,

[Speaker 5] (1:04:34 - 1:04:41)
as what happens with most sites that slowly dilapidate, deteriorate over time.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:49 - 1:04:54)
The next slide is concerning the Glover Multifamily Overlay District.

[Speaker 5] (1:04:54 - 1:05:02)
It's just a quick synopsis. As you all know, this overlay district was created a little over five years ago in the town of Swanscott.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:03 - 1:05:09)
It had particular goals in mind, one that the project, any future project have sustainable,

[Speaker 5] (1:05:09 - 1:05:11)
pedestrian-friendly development,

[Speaker 5] (1:05:11 - 1:05:15)
that it would be of high quality site planning.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:15 - 1:05:16)
nice architectural,

[Speaker 5] (1:05:16 - 1:05:17)
nice landscaping design.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:18 - 1:05:31)
The next condition was that it would be context sensitive design and creative siting planning and sensitive to the other architecture in the beautiful town of Swampscott.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:31 - 1:05:37)
And then finally the point, the final point is diversified housing stock.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:37 - 1:05:41)
As we all know the state of Massachusetts, especially Eastern Massachusetts,

[Speaker 5] (1:05:40 - 1:05:44)
Massachusetts is currently in a housing crisis.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:44 - 1:05:46)
I think that is non-debatable.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:46 - 1:05:56)
We have rents that are well over $4,000 for one and two bedrooms just north of Boston,

[Speaker 5] (1:05:56 - 1:05:59)
not inside of Boston, but just north of Boston.

[Speaker 5] (1:05:59 - 1:06:07)
The rents are skyrocketing. I think it's fair to say that many young people who live in this area and who are

[Speaker 5] (1:06:07 - 1:06:14)
who are deciding to move out of Massachusetts and move to the southern states as they are exiting and there is an exit going on.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:15 - 1:06:16)
That's a scientific fact today.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:16 - 1:06:20)
When asked why they are leaving places like the North Shore,

[Speaker 5] (1:06:20 - 1:06:23)
they are saying that rent is one of the biggest reasons.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:23 - 1:06:26)
It's just too unaffordable to live here.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:26 - 1:06:28)
As a result of that,

[Speaker 5] (1:06:28 - 1:06:32)
I think the town of Swampscot did the right thing. They're applying affordable housing.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:32 - 1:06:40)
housing and this project meets that affordable housing requirement. Of the 90,

[Speaker 5] (1:06:40 - 1:06:42)
of the 140 units,

[Speaker 5] (1:06:43 - 1:06:52)
20% are affordable and are geared to allow for some of our younger folks to rent and stay in our communities.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:53 - 1:06:57)
As we'll see a little later, I think it's important to note that these units are smaller units.

[Speaker 5] (1:06:57 - 1:07:01)
units they're all six and seven eight hundred square feet they're not designed

[Speaker 5] (1:07:02 - 1:07:04)
for large families.

[Speaker 5] (1:07:04 - 1:07:08)
Most of the units are one and twos, very few three families.

[Speaker 5] (1:07:08 - 1:07:09)
So they're designed for,

[Speaker 5] (1:07:09 - 1:07:19)
I think it's safe to say, folks under the age of 35 who've graduated college and looking to stay in Swampscott, looking to stay and live on the North Shore.

[Speaker 5] (1:07:20 - 1:07:22)
And with the affordability requirements,

[Speaker 5] (1:07:22 - 1:07:25)
that will allow more of them to live here.

[Speaker 5] (1:07:25 - 1:07:27)
I think the next slide talks about

[Speaker 5] (1:07:28 - 1:07:53)
Some of the requirements of the swamp scot overlay district it can't you need at least forty six thousand eight hundred and eighty five square feet this project is quite larger looking at it on the right-hand side maximum height is 50 feet there is no structure here higher than 50 feet it the overlay requires affordability

[Speaker 5] (1:07:54 - 1:07:58)
There are 17 affordable units, which is the requirement in the town of Swampscott.

[Speaker 5] (1:07:59 - 1:08:03)
There's a minimum of 1.5 parking space per unit,

[Speaker 5] (1:08:03 - 1:08:10)
1.5 parking space for a total of 104 parking spaces in Swampscott. It's provided.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:10 - 1:08:12)
We meet that requirement.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:13 - 1:08:14)
Minimum lot area,

[Speaker 5] (1:08:14 - 1:08:16)
10,000 square feet.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:16 - 1:08:19)
This is over two acres in the town of Swampscott.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:20 - 1:08:21)
And again,

[Speaker 5] (1:08:21 - 1:08:25)
these are just some of the broader bullet point items that I bring up.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:25 - 1:08:27)
The proposal is often,

[Speaker 5] (1:08:27 - 1:08:28)
as a proposal of right,

[Speaker 5] (1:08:28 - 1:08:32)
we meet all the requirements that your overlay district demands.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:34 - 1:08:39)
Hardly to say in doing a lot of projects along the North Shore and in Boston,

[Speaker 5] (1:08:39 - 1:08:47)
1.5% parking space per unit is a wonderful number for this town of Swampscott.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:47 - 1:08:52)
Many of the projects going on today in the greater Boston area and outside of Boston are at zero.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:53 - 1:08:55)
Yet here we're at 1.5.

[Speaker 5] (1:08:55 - 1:09:01)
So this is a number that's consistent with what the people of Swampscott want,

[Speaker 5] (1:09:01 - 1:09:07)
but it's still on the high side when you're looking at urban design and suburban design in 2026.

[Speaker 5] (1:09:10 - 1:09:12)
Switching over to the next slide, dance.

[Speaker 5] (1:09:14 - 1:09:16)
I think, again,

[Speaker 5] (1:09:16 - 1:09:18)
some general bullet points on the project proposals.

[Speaker 5] (1:09:19 - 1:09:24)
There's the marble head side and there's the Swampscott side.

[Speaker 5] (1:09:25 - 1:09:29)
We envision 140 residential units, 96 on

[Speaker 12] (1:09:29 - 1:09:30)
the marble

[Speaker 1] (1:09:31 - 1:09:32)
44 on the Marblehead side.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:32 - 1:09:34)
It's about six buildings.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:35 - 1:09:40)
It's again important to note that none of these buildings are going to be taller than 50 feet each.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:41 - 1:09:43)
It's a beautiful project.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:43 - 1:09:50)
It envisions a courtyard on the inside of these buildings that situates a...

[Speaker 1] (1:09:50 - 1:09:54)
a clubhouse and a pool for many of the tenants that will be living there.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:54 - 1:10:15)
It also envisions a utility shed for the upkeep and maybe most importantly for many of the inhabitants of Swanscott and Arbor Head it envisions a restoration of a Glover House which is quite different from the 2023 plans that were approved.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:15 - 1:10:18)
move from Leggett McCall. As you recall,

[Speaker 1] (1:10:18 - 1:10:24)
those plans in January of 2023 envisioned the teardown of the Golfer House.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:24 - 1:10:25)
Our plans do not.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:26 - 1:10:39)
Our plans encompass leaving the Golfer House there and working out collaboratively a solution with your local historical society for the long-term maintenance of that structure.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:40 - 1:10:41)
In use as a community asset,

[Speaker 1] (1:10:42 - 1:10:43)
maybe a museum,

[Speaker 1] (1:10:43 - 1:10:45)
maybe a function area,

[Speaker 1] (1:10:45 - 1:10:47)
we're not quite sure yet.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:47 - 1:10:53)
It'll depend really on what your historical society through public hearing will ask of it.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:53 - 1:11:04)
But they have a more than willing partner in this development group in making sure that the long-term viability of the Glover House is sustained.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:06 - 1:11:10)
I think the next slideshow indicates a breakdown of the units.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:10 - 1:11:12)
I don't want to go too long. I know we've given 10 minutes.

[Speaker 2] (1:11:13 - 1:11:16)
I said 10 minutes, but I think this is very informative,

[Speaker 2] (1:11:16 - 1:11:17)
so we'll keep it going.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:17 - 1:11:22)
Thank you. I think the next slide shows the unit breakdown in Swamp Scott,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:22 - 1:11:23)
the three buildings,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:23 - 1:11:25)
building four, five, and six.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:25 - 1:11:28)
It talks about the total units in each of the buildings.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:29 - 1:11:31)
I think what's important to note...

[Speaker 1] (1:11:31 - 1:11:31)
is that

[Speaker 1] (1:11:32 - 1:11:37)
Almost all the buildings on the Swampscott side are one and two bedrooms.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:37 - 1:11:38)
Again,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:38 - 1:11:39)
one and two bedrooms.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:40 - 1:11:42)
They're not designed for large families.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:43 - 1:11:44)
And, you know,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:44 - 1:11:50)
we've heard this as a criticism in the past that there'd be too many parking issues,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:50 - 1:11:51)
too much congestion.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:51 - 1:11:52)
Again,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:52 - 1:11:55)
it's important to note that with the affordable component,

[Speaker 1] (1:11:55 - 1:11:59)
the goal here is to keep many of our kids and our grandkids.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:59 - 1:12:09)
Grandkids who cannot afford to rent along the North Shore to give them an opportunity to rent here and to stay here at least for the short term as they build their families.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:11 - 1:12:15)
I think there's a key on the right-hand side that talks about the floor of area,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:16 - 1:12:18)
the coverage areas.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:20 - 1:12:22)
On the Swamp Scott side,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:22 - 1:12:31)
you know, the next slide provides the same information, but more particular to the three structures on the Marblehead side.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:32 - 1:12:33)
I think what's, again,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:33 - 1:12:46)
an important attribute on the Marblehead side that of all the units there are only three, three bedrooms. Only three out of 140 are three bedrooms,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:46 - 1:12:47)
okay. So again,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:47 - 1:12:50)
these are smaller units. They range in size from five,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:51 - 1:12:51)
six,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:51 - 1:12:51)
seven,

[Speaker 1] (1:12:51 - 1:12:58)
800 square feet. Most of them I think the average size and the architect's here, he could correct me, but I believe they're in the 600s.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:58 - 1:13:08)
They're not large units. They are geared for a certain marketability. They're geared toward a certain target area.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:08 - 1:13:16)
Obviously, if older folks like myself want to rent and sell and downsize, they'll be available for that as well.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:17 - 1:13:18)
But again,

[Speaker 1] (1:13:18 - 1:13:22)
you know, these units are geared.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:23 - 1:13:29)
to try to address some of the housing issues that we're having in the greater Boston area.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:30 - 1:13:40)
Architectural renderings, and Ken will talk about this a little bit later, but this proposal is very different from the one that was already approved in 2023.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:41 - 1:13:44)
These are actually beautiful buildings.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:44 - 1:13:46)
The architecture on them is gorgeous.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:47 - 1:13:55)
They've been designed in a way to fit into what's already existing in Swampscott and Marblehead.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:55 - 1:13:58)
you have a more historic vintage look to them.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:59 - 1:14:02)
They are not the same style that you'll see in Boston.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:02 - 1:14:04)
I'm not sure if any of you have seen some of the other projects in Boston.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:05 - 1:14:11)
I tend to suggest they have more of a New York City Bronx kind of look.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:12 - 1:14:14)
That is not the look of this new development,

[Speaker 1] (1:14:14 - 1:14:14)
right?

[Speaker 1] (1:14:14 - 1:14:20)
It is more of a vintage historic look and maybe Nancy can flip through some of these.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:21 - 1:14:23)
on the screen again

[Speaker 1] (1:14:25 - 1:14:44)
beautiful gables beautiful fireplace chimney fireplaces wonderful articulation now these are magic words because in the building world anytime you talk about chimney fireplaces and wonderful articulation and clapboard talk about mom right

[Speaker 1] (1:14:45 - 1:14:50)
easier to build that Bronx style look on many of these new buildings.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:50 - 1:14:54)
That is not what this is. These are gorgeous structures.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:55 - 1:15:13)
Proper articulation is given to them to mix into your community, uh and they are very expensive to build. Understand, this is a significantly more expensive project to build than the one that was uh presented in twenty twenty three from uh Leggett McCall, okay. Nancy, if you keep swinging through.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:20 - 1:15:21)
Again a side view.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:29 - 1:15:38)
There's a there's a great deal of intentionality to these and now what's important is that on the inside in the courtyard view Which I don't think we have a screen of do we dance do we have a shot of that?

[Speaker 1] (1:15:39 - 1:15:46)
There'll be a pool with a clubhouse. So they're going to be beautiful structures and right nearby is going to be the Glover House.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:46 - 1:15:53)
The goal with the Glover House is to integrate it into the development so that all the pathways will lead to the Glover House.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:54 - 1:15:56)
People will be able to visit it, participate there.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:57 - 1:16:02)
We're going to allow for parking at the Glover House on the inside of this facility.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:02 - 1:16:05)
All of the above ground parking is not going to be designated.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:05 - 1:16:16)
So it's going to be a free flow of traffic and parking on the inside area so that folks who are visiting the Glover House can park there.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:16 - 1:16:19)
The goal is to keep that Glover House looking nice.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:20 - 1:16:23)
This group is not going to spend tens of millions of dollars.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:24 - 1:16:30)
They are not going to spend tens of millions of dollars on this kind of project and have a dilapidated Glover House.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:30 - 1:16:35)
They want to see a nice facility there that enhances the entire community.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:36 - 1:16:38)
I didn't insult anyone here,

[Speaker 1] (1:16:38 - 1:16:42)
but I think you saw what that Glover House site looks like today,

[Speaker 1] (1:16:42 - 1:16:46)
and I think you can look at what we anticipated it would look like in a couple of years,

[Speaker 1] (1:16:46 - 1:16:49)
and it's a drastic, drastic improvement.

[Speaker 1] (1:16:50 - 1:17:00)
And I think no one could really credibly argue that it wouldn't be a drastic improvement because it clearly is on many,

[Speaker 1] (1:17:00 - 1:17:00)
many levels.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:04 - 1:17:05)
What's the next?

[Speaker 1] (1:17:10 - 1:17:11)
So the highlights of the project,

[Speaker 1] (1:17:11 - 1:17:12)
and I...

[Speaker 1] (1:17:13 - 1:17:18)
I've kind of talked about the first one, which is a preservation of the Glover House, and Ken's going to jump in here in a moment.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:19 - 1:17:21)
But it's important to note that this,

[Speaker 1] (1:17:21 - 1:17:35)
these plans are really a culmination of this ownership group reaching out to the community and talking to the neighbors and trying to listen to what some of the complaints were about the 2023 proposal.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:35 - 1:17:38)
And based on some of the criticisms that they heard about

[Speaker 1] (1:17:38 - 1:17:40)
about the already approved Leggett plans.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:41 - 1:17:43)
These new plans were generated.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:43 - 1:17:47)
The Glover House is preserved in these plans, so I want to make that clear.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:47 - 1:17:55)
Just last week, the Swampscott Historical Commission approved our plans moving forward.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:55 - 1:17:59)
The only non-tare down is for the Glover House.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:59 - 1:18:07)
And so it was wonderful to work with them. It was wonderful to, we look forward to continuing to work with the chairman and the members.

[Speaker 1] (1:18:07 - 1:18:09)
because it's going to be an ongoing dialogue.

[Speaker 1] (1:18:10 - 1:18:18)
I think as they finalize their plans and figure out exactly what they want the Glover House to look like and figure out what the funding is going to be for that,

[Speaker 1] (1:18:18 - 1:18:25)
they're going to have a very receptive accommodating development partner in helping them bring those plans to fruition.

[Speaker 1] (1:18:26 - 1:18:27)
Again,

[Speaker 1] (1:18:27 - 1:18:34)
point number two is that there'll be a 17 affordable housing unit.

[Speaker 1] (1:18:33 - 1:19:00)
units on the uh on the uh uh Swampscott side. Uh again very important in this housing crisis, uh it's good to see that Swampscott will be participating and alleviating that problem. Um and again it I can't emphasise this enough, a as a i as a fifty eight year old with kids and a grand-child coming, it's the number one complaint I hear all the time.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:00 - 1:19:04)
from younger people, is it's just too expensive to live here.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:04 - 1:19:10)
These rents are escalating and shooting through the roofs. If we don't build more of this kind of housing,

[Speaker 1] (1:19:10 - 1:19:24)
if we don't build more affordable housing, we're going to drive these kids out of the state. And that's not, that's, I'm not, I'm not kidding. This isn't salesmanship. I, I, I know that members of this board know about this, but all you have to do

[Speaker 1] (1:19:32 - 1:19:37)
And when you dig down on those numbers and you look at population-wise who these people are,

[Speaker 1] (1:19:37 - 1:19:41)
the largest group is, I think, 38 and under.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:42 - 1:19:43)
And when they're being asked,

[Speaker 1] (1:19:43 - 1:19:44)
why are you leaving,

[Speaker 1] (1:19:44 - 1:19:46)
there's always a few reasons,

[Speaker 1] (1:19:46 - 1:19:48)
but the number one reason is affordability.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:49 - 1:19:54)
And so I do think that plans like this, as they sprout out and are being implemented through Massachusetts,

[Speaker 1] (1:19:55 - 1:19:59)
will help us keep our kids and grandkids here for the long run.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:01 - 1:20:02)
Traffic.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:03 - 1:20:06)
It's a transit-oriented development in traffic.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:06 - 1:20:11)
It's important to note that there are two MVTA lines that run right in front of this structure.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:12 - 1:20:12)
While,

[Speaker 1] (1:20:12 - 1:20:14)
again, I'm a little older,

[Speaker 1] (1:20:14 - 1:20:19)
I don't envision taking the train and Ubering. I don't have an Uber account and I don't take the train.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:19 - 1:20:23)
I can tell you that my four kids, all under the age of 30,

[Speaker 1] (1:20:23 - 1:20:26)
each and every one of them takes Uber and takes the train.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:26 - 1:20:27)
Not one of them.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:27 - 1:20:28)
has a car.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:29 - 1:20:35)
I don't get it. I don't, but I do think that maybe that's my age,

[Speaker 1] (1:20:35 - 1:20:39)
but my understanding is that most people who are younger today Uber.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:40 - 1:20:54)
They Uber and they take transit. They're not into having cars and they're not into driving to places like Boston because even if they have a car and they go to Boston with it, they have nowhere to park it because there's no parking in Boston.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:54 - 1:20:55)
So, look,

[Speaker 1] (1:20:56 - 1:21:01)
these are the seismic changes that are occurring today in the world of development,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:01 - 1:21:05)
and we're accommodating for it in these plans.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:05 - 1:21:10)
Attorney DeGiorgio Marino, we're up on 20 minutes, so I know you're close, but I'm sure the board

[Speaker 1] (1:21:10 - 1:21:10)
Yeah,

[Speaker 2] (1:21:10 - 1:21:10)
appreciates it.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:10 - 1:21:11)
and just my final point,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:11 - 1:21:13)
and I hear this all the time.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:15 - 1:21:17)
Traffic, traffic, traffic, traffic.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:17 - 1:21:17)
Well,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:17 - 1:21:19)
I do want to say something about traffic.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:20 - 1:21:22)
I understand this is a business district,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:22 - 1:21:22)
okay?

[Speaker 1] (1:21:23 - 1:21:26)
These five acres at some point are going to get developed.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:26 - 1:21:30)
And what's allowed here by right is a restaurant use,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:30 - 1:21:31)
a bank use.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:32 - 1:21:45)
Retail use, if you scientifically looked at the amount of traffic that the uses that are allowed here by right and you compare them to the traffic that this project would bring,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:45 - 1:21:46)
again,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:46 - 1:21:47)
as a matter of science,

[Speaker 1] (1:21:47 - 1:21:54)
this project will bring much less traffic than the allowed use of right that could go onto this law.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:55 - 1:21:56)
There is no doubt about that.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:57 - 1:21:59)
So again, it's a win-win.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:59 - 1:22:01)
I thank you and we have folks here that will answer.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:01 - 1:22:03)
I'd like to just real quickly with,

[Speaker 1] (1:22:03 - 1:22:05)
if I could,

[Speaker 1] (1:22:05 - 1:22:12)
I'd like a council to talk about the 2023 plans and these plans and how they're different.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:12 - 1:22:14)
I think I'd like to open it up to the board.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:14 - 1:22:17)
I think we're aware that the plans are significantly different,

[Speaker 2] (1:22:17 - 1:22:19)
but I appreciate that.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:20 - 1:22:28)
If any of the board members have any questions and thank you very much that was very informative and we appreciate you putting that together.

[Speaker 3] (1:22:28 - 1:22:29)
Thanks.

[Speaker 4] (1:22:29 - 1:22:37)
Uh I just since I'm new to the board, the the only traffic study that to my understanding was done when during COVID is what I heard.

[Speaker 5] (1:22:37 - 1:22:38)
Right.

[Speaker 4] (1:22:38 - 1:22:43)
So has there been any plans to update the traffic study to, you know, to

[Speaker 1] (1:22:43 - 1:22:43)
I

[Speaker 4] (1:22:43 - 1:22:43)
post

[Speaker 1] (1:22:43 - 1:22:43)
believe one

[Speaker 4] (1:22:43 - 1:22:44)
COVID?

[Speaker 1] (1:22:44 - 1:22:45)
was updated and submitted today.

[Speaker 4] (1:22:45 - 1:22:46)
Oh,

[Speaker 1] (1:22:46 - 1:22:46)
It

[Speaker 4] (1:22:46 - 1:22:46)
okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:46 - 1:22:48)
was should have been uploaded and submitted.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:48 - 1:22:49)
I don't have it in front of me,

[Speaker 1] (1:22:49 - 1:23:05)
but my recollection is the peak points showing about roughly 50 cars in or out during the peak hours in the morning and in the afternoon. But there was a plan that was upgraded to the uploaded to the.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:05 - 1:23:06)
Put it to the portal today.

[Speaker 4] (1:23:08 - 1:23:08)
I think Chris is.

[Speaker 6] (1:23:08 - 1:23:18)
Right. Um the board just in front of you, you have what's been printed out as of like 2 p.m. So anything submitted after that you got you guys don't have in front of you.

[Speaker 4] (1:23:18 - 1:23:19)
Thank

[Speaker 2] (1:23:19 - 1:23:23)
You know, was that a full new traffic report or was it an amendment to a prior report?

[Speaker 1] (1:23:23 - 1:23:24)
It was one done,

[Speaker 1] (1:23:25 - 1:23:26)
I believe, in 2023,

[Speaker 1] (1:23:26 - 1:23:31)
and it was an amendment based on the 2023 version.

[Speaker 7] (1:23:31 - 1:23:33)
That would be the Van Ness report that you

[Speaker 2] (1:23:33 - 1:23:33)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (1:23:33 - 1:23:34)
recently filed.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:35 - 1:23:43)
And, you know, I do recollect that the 2023 special conditions also required further.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:44 - 1:23:51)
uh uh evaluation as the project was being built and we'd have no objection to that special condition um as well on this.

[Speaker 4] (1:23:52 - 1:23:53)
Okay, thank you.

[Speaker 8] (1:23:56 - 1:23:58)
So in terms of site development,

[Speaker 8] (1:23:58 - 1:24:01)
you have all underground parking here.

[Speaker 7] (1:24:01 - 1:24:02)
Yes.

[Speaker 8] (1:24:02 - 1:24:04)
It's a full underground garage.

[Speaker 8] (1:24:04 - 1:24:09)
I know that our police and fire department are both very concerned about single egress.

[Speaker 8] (1:24:10 - 1:24:22)
going in and out in fact our our police department is adamant about there needing to be a second egress we can talk further about that my question is you know

[Speaker 4] (1:24:22 - 1:24:23)
The Higgin,

[Speaker 8] (1:24:23 - 1:24:23)
pardon

[Speaker 4] (1:24:23 - 1:24:23)
yeah.

[Speaker 8] (1:24:23 - 1:24:24)
me that's

[Speaker 7] (1:24:24 - 1:24:24)
Vehicular.

[Speaker 2] (1:24:24 - 1:24:25)
Second vehicular egress.

[Speaker 8] (1:24:26 - 1:24:28)
yes sorry that's what i thank you

[Speaker 2] (1:24:28 - 1:24:28)
I think that's

[Speaker 8] (1:24:28 - 1:24:36)
no you're right that's thank you for the clarification yes um one thing that concerns me you know um

[Speaker 8] (1:24:37 - 1:24:55)
The traffic studies that we looked at, we were, well I shouldn't say I'm more concerned, I'm equally concerned about traffic studies, but I'm more concerned about site circulation and getting in and out of the site and especially from the safety vehicles perspective where there's been a lot of concern voiced from.

[Speaker 8] (1:24:56 - 1:25:06)
From police and fire as well as board of health so we can get to that as well in terms of site prep and excavating the site

[Speaker 8] (1:25:06 - 1:25:17)
What kind of, we've never, we have never contemplated full underground parking before here.

[Speaker 8] (1:25:17 - 1:25:25)
So I'm assuming you'll need to do a lot of ground testing. All of the sewage and drainage that we did was based on surface.

[Speaker 8] (1:25:26 - 1:25:27)
Everything was surface.

[Speaker 8] (1:25:27 - 1:25:31)
So all the plans and we had extensive planning done and peer reviews.

[Speaker 8] (1:25:32 - 1:25:55)
were all based on on on that so it's going to be important to understand what that looks like when you go down another you know eight feet or whatever you have to do to excavate and I don't know what's down there if there is you know ledge if there's you're gonna hit water I've no idea so that's going to be an important piece of this as well I'm wondering if

[Speaker 8] (1:25:56 - 1:26:01)
anyone else had concerns about that. I think it's great to put the parking underground,

[Speaker 8] (1:26:01 - 1:26:02)
but get me wrong,

[Speaker 8] (1:26:02 - 1:26:09)
but I also concerned that it's it's a big big shift from what we had in the past.

[Speaker 7] (1:26:10 - 1:26:16)
So we do have our engineer who can probably answer some micro questions on that.

[Speaker 7] (1:26:16 - 1:26:18)
I can tell you that at a macro level,

[Speaker 7] (1:26:18 - 1:26:26)
almost all modern day development in the greater Boston area that envisions this kind of parking is underground.

[Speaker 8] (1:26:27 - 1:26:31)
I don't have any questions about I'm not debating these are the good or bad idea.

[Speaker 7] (1:26:31 - 1:26:31)
Yeah,

[Speaker 8] (1:26:31 - 1:26:33)
I just need to understand what it means for this site.

[Speaker 7] (1:26:33 - 1:26:33)
sure.

[Speaker 8] (1:26:33 - 1:26:36)
And we don't have to answer right now because I think other

[Speaker 8] (1:26:36 - 1:26:38)
Other board members may have some questions, maybe we wanna

[Speaker 2] (1:26:39 - 1:26:39)
Sure.

[Speaker 8] (1:26:39 - 1:26:39)
Let

[Speaker 2] (1:26:39 - 1:26:40)
Yeah,

[Speaker 8] (1:26:40 - 1:26:40)
anybody

[Speaker 2] (1:26:40 - 1:26:45)
we could ask. add it. And I think what what you're asking for is just a more developed plan to understand that.

[Speaker 8] (1:26:45 - 1:26:46)
Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:26:46 - 1:27:04)
And similarly the vehicular egress from a safety standpoint from a traffic standpoint and the other thing on here in in regards to the site plan the adjacencies are going to be really important because we're seeing where driveways are coming out.

[Speaker 2] (1:27:04 - 1:27:18)
out. But what isn't recorded is what's across the street from that? Where are people exiting from Sunbeam? Where are people exiting from the Staples parking lot? How does this relate to all that? Because that's

[Speaker 9] (1:27:19 - 1:27:23)
that's the context of arriving and departing this property.

[Speaker 9] (1:27:23 - 1:27:30)
So I think that that's that's another piece that that's it's it's incredibly important.

[Speaker 9] (1:27:30 - 1:27:34)
And then there are you know there is an amount of

[Speaker 9] (1:27:34 - 1:28:01)
surface parking and and really looking where those entrances and exits how they impact because these are these are this is a complicated intersection um and truthfully anyone that shops at staples and has to get back to the other side of town knows you have to know what exit to come out of that if you're going to make a left turn on to Salem and it's something that most people in Marblehead and Swamp could have figured out but adding a few more exits into that it's it's a it's a

[Speaker 9] (1:28:01 - 1:28:21)
it's a traffic uh it it's definitely worthy of being studied uh contextually so we understand what the impact could be because it it doesn't seem like well there's not going to be that many guests coming and going but when you layer that on top of what the existing conditions are i think that that is something that um should be addressed while in there.

[Speaker 9] (1:28:21 - 1:28:24)
Um I do applaud the idea of getting the parking underground.

[Speaker 8] (1:28:24 - 1:28:24)
Oh

[Speaker 9] (1:28:24 - 1:28:24)
It

[Speaker 8] (1:28:24 - 1:28:24)
yeah,

[Speaker 9] (1:28:24 - 1:28:24)
is

[Speaker 8] (1:28:24 - 1:28:24)
I

[Speaker 9] (1:28:24 - 1:28:25)
it

[Speaker 8] (1:28:25 - 1:28:25)
agree.

[Speaker 9] (1:28:25 - 1:28:27)
is certainly something and it's something that

[Speaker 9] (1:28:27 - 1:28:28)
that has

[Speaker 8] (1:28:28 - 1:28:29)
Wonderful.

[Speaker 9] (1:28:29 - 1:28:41)
come up as something that we find attractive. So I don't want you to think that it's like, we don't, we just need a little bit more detail and understanding of what the impacts of these entrances and exits and their placement.

[Speaker 9] (1:28:42 - 1:28:54)
I really think that when it comes to the scale of the buildings, the way in which they're sighted, that this is definitely something that

[Speaker 9] (1:28:55 - 1:29:02)
feels like it is matching a lot more of what we're hoping from for from this site as a town.

[Speaker 9] (1:29:03 - 1:29:06)
I do have a few areas of concern.

[Speaker 9] (1:29:06 - 1:29:19)
The adjacency of the service building being within 15 feet of the historic building sort of is concealing that building a bit and and I would like to have that studied a little bit more and

[Speaker 1] (1:29:41 - 1:29:41)
everything else.

[Speaker 1] (1:29:41 - 1:29:45)
So I think really understanding what the functions are of those spaces would be good.

[Speaker 1] (1:29:47 - 1:30:03)
I do see opportunities in looking at this, and one thing that has been brought to me by different people that have looked at this plan is would there possibly be a way to address the activities building,

[Speaker 1] (1:30:04 - 1:30:06)
I'm gonna call it that because I don't have it labeled in front of me.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:07 - 1:30:08)
Too many drawings

[Speaker 2] (1:30:08 - 1:30:08)
Clubhouse.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:08 - 1:30:08)
there.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:08 - 1:30:24)
The clubhouse, would there be a possibility to look at the way this is laid out, there's one more historic building on there that is a very similar square footage and could go beautifully with what's being planned here because in a very

[Speaker 1] (1:30:27 - 1:30:40)
surprising way it's it's almost a comparable looking building once it was restored and that is the the I'm gonna say Ingalls house and that's wrong

[Speaker 3] (1:30:40 - 1:30:41)
It's the little building.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:41 - 1:30:51)
little build the little building that I think that that would be great to see how that could get incorporated in I appreciate the level of detail

[Speaker 1] (1:30:52 - 1:30:56)
that's gone into these and the thoughtfulness of how this is going.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:57 - 1:31:03)
We've had presentations before where examples are looked at and they're just sort of

[Speaker 1] (1:31:04 - 1:31:30)
vaguely attempted and they don't have a have a feeling of place, this has a feeling of place that it's there's intention to the details. Um one thing in going with very historic forms, I I think that these could really benefit from more exploration on the covered decks because they actually don't they are not at that same level of detail and sort of understanding how those go

[Speaker 1] (1:31:30 - 1:31:40)
And once you've got into the requirements for code, how to look at those rail systems so that they don't feel, you know, because you're at four feet and it's it's an awkward

[Speaker 1] (1:31:41 - 1:32:02)
rail height. So really thinking about how that might be detailed to possibly give the tenants a little more privacy on them and also for them not to feel as attached like we know everybody gets a balcony, um maybe some of these units they don't need a balcony and maybe we can can think about um getting some some

[Speaker 1] (1:32:03 - 1:32:11)
variation in the elevations that way. I applaud the material shift that some of these are brick, some of them are wood,

[Speaker 1] (1:32:11 - 1:32:20)
breaking down the feel of this space so that it doesn't feel like a cut and paste and flip and you know mirror and blah blah blah.

[Speaker 1] (1:32:20 - 1:32:26)
Some of that some of the buildings are more successful than others in that but I think really having that as a

[Speaker 1] (1:32:28 - 1:32:41)
as a desire I we've all been to places where you get lost because everything looks the same and and making sure that there's there's separation in in those those elements without it being

[Speaker 1] (1:32:43 - 1:33:08)
cliche, but you know I I think there's there's a lot of great intent in what you're showing um and I do feel that this starts um this starts coming much more into a realm I was not here for the earliest presentations of past, but I have seen one variation from another developer and and this is this is much closer to what

[Speaker 1] (1:33:08 - 1:33:25)
I think the town's intent for this this type of zoning may have been. Um so I guess a question that I would I would ask if this is a moment to ask a question is is there any consideration on that clubhouse to utilise that building considering its location?

[Speaker 4] (1:33:26 - 1:33:28)
So I'll I'll put my finance ha hat on,

[Speaker 1] (1:33:28 - 1:33:29)
Okay.

[Speaker 4] (1:33:29 - 1:33:30)
uh for for this question.

[Speaker 4] (1:33:32 - 1:33:36)
Look, we all know we're living in difficult economic times.

[Speaker 4] (1:33:38 - 1:33:41)
The war in Iran is not helping things.

[Speaker 4] (1:33:41 - 1:33:43)
Inflation is spiraling.

[Speaker 4] (1:33:44 - 1:33:48)
We are dealing with an increase,

[Speaker 4] (1:33:48 - 1:33:51)
likely increase in interest rates very soon with the Fed.

[Speaker 4] (1:33:53 - 1:34:04)
In all candor, we're at the point on this project where we've tried to accommodate many of the concerns that have been brought up really over the last five years.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:04 - 1:34:19)
That's why these plans are so different than the plans five years ago or three years ago that were approved in 2023 and why there's such an upgrade and they're costing more is because we thought rather than beating around the bush, so to speak, we'd really go out.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:19 - 1:34:22)
out and talk to some of the folks,

[Speaker 4] (1:34:22 - 1:34:27)
listen to some of the commentary from three years ago, and implement it.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:30 - 1:34:41)
It's really prohibitive to try to restore another structure and repurpose it into the center of this.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:41 - 1:34:43)
It just won't work financially.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:44 - 1:34:50)
We're at a point on these plans where it's either going to happen or it's not.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:50 - 1:34:51)
As we all know,

[Speaker 4] (1:34:51 - 1:34:54)
there's a term and it's called penciling out.

[Speaker 4] (1:34:55 - 1:34:57)
It's kind of an old-fashioned term. Does it pencil out?

[Speaker 4] (1:34:57 - 1:34:59)
Does it pay for itself?

[Speaker 4] (1:34:59 - 1:35:03)
And we are right at the brink right now.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:03 - 1:35:07)
We have tariffs that are increasing wood stock and steel.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:08 - 1:35:10)
We're looking at, again,

[Speaker 4] (1:35:10 - 1:35:12)
increased interest rates that are coming up.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:12 - 1:35:15)
I'll also say one other thing to you folks.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:15 - 1:35:18)
When financing projects like this,

[Speaker 4] (1:35:18 - 1:35:20)
this project's a little odd.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:20 - 1:35:23)
It's not in the sweet spot for private equity money.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:23 - 1:35:29)
Most projects today on the larger scales are 180 to 200 units and up.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:30 - 1:35:34)
Private equity is funding 60 to 70 percent of those projects.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:34 - 1:35:41)
Commercial banks are involved in a very small percentage of the construction costs today on the larger projects.

[Speaker 4] (1:35:41 - 1:35:47)
This proposal is kind of in the middle. It's at 140 units,

[Speaker 4] (1:35:47 - 1:35:48)
which makes it...

[Speaker 4] (1:35:49 - 1:36:16)
unattractive to private equity and as a result it makes it unattractive to the low interest rates that private equity firms provide in this kind of project so instead of dealing with three three and a half four and a half five and a half you're dealing with seven eight nine percent and it again it cuts into the margins we're you know it's a great proposal I think it's it really does check all the boxes for swamp scum

[Speaker 4] (1:36:15 - 1:36:26)
I'm Scott Marblehead, but it really is not a starting point. It is right up against the end for us in terms of being able to finance it and getting it done.

[Speaker 5] (1:36:28 - 1:36:28)
And Jerry,

[Speaker 5] (1:36:28 - 1:36:32)
I do think there's something to say that the commission's on board too at this point

[Speaker 6] (1:36:32 - 1:36:32)
I don't

[Speaker 5] (1:36:32 - 1:36:34)
too. Yeah, so that it

[Speaker 1] (1:36:34 - 1:36:40)
No, but I I do I do feel like this question is come in front of us and that that that's an explanation

[Speaker 1] (1:36:41 - 1:36:56)
In response to um to this, the one thing that does concern me, and they may be in here and I haven't found them but there really isn't a materials list. And when we are loo or that I haven't seen. So when I look at renderings, renderings are renderings.

[Speaker 7] (1:36:56 - 1:36:57)
Three come in.

[Speaker 1] (1:36:57 - 1:37:00)
But the actual calling out of materials is important because

[Speaker 5] (1:37:02 - 1:37:02)
The

[Speaker 1] (1:37:02 - 1:37:28)
Projects like this can be put together, clapboard projects can be put together, uh wood frame brick can be put together. But until it's actually called out detail-wise are these vinyl shutters screwed to vinyl siding? Are these uh composite shutters on a hardy board that's painted? I mean all of that level of detailing um can look exactly the same in renderings and and elevations.

[Speaker 8] (1:37:28 - 1:37:29)
We could

[Speaker 9] (1:37:28 - 1:37:28)
If

[Speaker 1] (1:37:28 - 1:37:38)
So I guess my question would be, especially when you're voicing your concerns over finance, I would hate to see this valued engineered into a building that wouldn't have longevity,

[Speaker 1] (1:37:38 - 1:37:39)
it wouldn't show quality,

[Speaker 1] (1:37:40 - 1:37:40)
and it wouldn't

[Speaker 1] (1:37:41 - 1:37:42)
serve the TAFEs.

[Speaker 4] (1:37:42 - 1:37:45)
So in an odd way it's just the opposite.

[Speaker 4] (1:37:45 - 1:37:51)
Because this is not the kind of project that can be put on the market in four or five or six years,

[Speaker 4] (1:37:51 - 1:37:52)
which is what private equity does.

[Speaker 4] (1:37:52 - 1:38:00)
Understand all these larger products are designed to have an ROI of between four and six years and then be sold.

[Speaker 4] (1:38:01 - 1:38:06)
That is not the situation here. This is a project that's going to be kept and maintained for the long run.

[Speaker 4] (1:38:07 - 1:38:19)
As a result of that, the stock that's gonna be used, I'd suggest it's going to be a better stock. But we do have the architect here uh who could probably answer any more specific questions on that, and we could we could definitely supplement what I'm and here.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:19 - 1:38:28)
I I apologise if it's in here and I just wasn't able to find it because there's a lot of drawings. But um I think that's can you speak at all to those details, because we're not looking at um

[Speaker 5] (1:38:28 - 1:38:29)
A_ two, there's a three.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:29 - 1:38:30)
A_

[Speaker 5] (1:38:30 - 1:38:30)
I have to see.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:30 - 1:38:31)
A_ two.

[Speaker 5] (1:38:31 - 1:38:32)
It's just a three.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:33 - 1:38:33)
Beautiful.

[Speaker 5] (1:38:35 - 1:38:36)
But not much.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:38 - 1:38:40)
Dimensions are similar.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:41 - 1:38:49)
Um things like this, there's a lot of emphasis put on um on the windows are these I'm I see that it's series

[Speaker 1] (1:38:49 - 1:39:04)
Anderson 400 series double hung windows are similar. Um are we expressing the muntins in the windows i in simulated or true divided light versus um plastic in the glass? Um

[Speaker 10] (1:39:06 - 1:39:07)
Ca can they respond to your question?

[Speaker 1] (1:39:07 - 1:39:08)
Anyone. Okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:39:10 - 1:39:20)
Yes, uh if you look to the materials label, all natural materials and all complement the maritime aesthetic and the historical nature of the home.

[Speaker 2] (1:39:22 - 1:39:27)
Uh specifically on the windows though are they how are those those expressed because um

[Speaker 2] (1:39:28 - 1:39:31)
I'm looking at the materials legend. Did you see it anywhere?

[Speaker 3] (1:39:31 - 1:39:33)
Mm-mm, just that, that's all I'm looking

[Speaker 2] (1:39:33 - 1:39:48)
at Yeah, Anderson 400 series double hung windows are similar because it the the design itself is very reliant on these various historic details. Um so I think that that that would be one that um just just making sure that

[Speaker 2] (1:39:49 - 1:39:52)
the way this is executed, um

[Speaker 3] (1:39:52 - 1:39:56)
It doesn't start to look flat. I think that's really okay. You want you want it to

[Speaker 2] (1:39:56 - 1:39:57)
Yeah. Um

[Speaker 2] (1:39:59 - 1:40:00)
And then So the other

[Speaker 4] (1:40:00 - 1:40:00)
like

[Speaker 2] (1:40:00 - 1:40:17)
question I would have quickly is the there's chimneys on the building. Something that we've been seeing happening a lot as technology is changing is that the H_V_A_C_ systems are just popping up everywhere and buildings get approved and then it gets the I call it the cemetery of of heat exchange,

[Speaker 3] (1:40:17 - 1:40:18)
Units, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:40:18 - 1:40:25)
you know, units on the roofs of them. And it it is a case, do you have a plan in here as to how mechanical

[Speaker 2] (1:40:25 - 1:40:30)
mechanical systems are concealed because very often they don't show up in renderings, they don't show up in elevations,

[Speaker 5] (1:40:30 - 1:40:30)
Interesting.

[Speaker 2] (1:40:30 - 1:40:39)
but they have to show up. Um so are the are the chimneys just decorative or are you tying into them or what's the plan?

[Speaker 6] (1:40:40 - 1:41:00)
Uh good evening. I'm Josh Kleins, Stonefield Engineering and Design. We're our office located in Salem. I'm not the the project architect. The project architect isn't here this evening. I'm just the engineer. Um but I will do my best kind of in working with them to get there. Um you know at this time I don't think the final HVAC kind of orientation locations have been designed. I know their intention would be to screen them

[Speaker 2] (1:41:00 - 1:41:00)
Mm

[Speaker 6] (1:41:00 - 1:41:01)
as

[Speaker 2] (1:41:01 - 1:41:01)
hmm.

[Speaker 6] (1:41:01 - 1:41:05)
best as they can. Um I don't think they've eliminated the possibility of venting.

[Speaker 6] (1:41:05 - 1:41:14)
thing, you know, through the chimneys, but I d I I do not know exactly what their intent is. You know, my assumption would be that they would want to make these somewhat usable,

[Speaker 6] (1:41:14 - 1:41:19)
but um you know, that hasn't been kind of finalised uh at this point in time.

[Speaker 3] (1:41:20 - 1:41:22)
Because if the roofs are not flat, so

[Speaker 1] (1:41:22 - 1:41:22)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (1:41:22 - 1:41:25)
presumably they're happening somewhere on site or in the

[Speaker 1] (1:41:25 - 1:41:25)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (1:41:25 - 1:41:26)
parking garage.

[Speaker 6] (1:41:27 - 1:41:45)
Yeah, there there could be opportunities you know on the roof there could be opportunities you know at grade I mean you know from a site civil engineer you know one of the advantages here of putting the the parking underground is we have a lot more room on site to work with I mean we're decreasing impervious surfaces by over 14,000 square feet from out what's out there today so

[Speaker 6] (1:41:45 - 1:41:58)
So there is plenty of opportunity for us to find ways to place them on site and I'm sure what we would have to do as part of our design process is ensure they're screened. You know, we don't want them, you know, readily visible, you know, from the right of way as well.

[Speaker 2] (1:41:59 - 1:42:08)
Sure. And I d I do think uh roof plans would be helpful because there are complex roofs and there are some that are uh that the brick buildings are showing.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:10 - 1:42:17)
they read as a flat roof, which is fine, but um everything is just sort of uh labelled as a block unless I have missed it.

[Speaker 3] (1:42:17 - 1:42:18)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:42:19 - 1:42:21)
Yeah, no I think it's a good comment.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:21 - 1:42:21)
Yeah.

[Speaker 7] (1:42:24 - 1:42:26)
Uh there were revised plans and a more

[Speaker 1] (1:42:26 - 1:42:26)
Yep.

[Speaker 7] (1:42:26 - 1:42:28)
clear today.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:28 - 1:42:28)
Oh.

[Speaker 7] (1:42:28 - 1:42:31)
So that both aren't in front of you, so it's possible there's more detail.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:31 - 1:42:32)
Okay, awesome.

[Speaker 7] (1:42:33 - 1:42:33)
I mean,

[Speaker 8] (1:42:33 - 1:42:39)
If you want I can bring them up, but um yeah, the revised plans were submitted late this afternoon.

[Speaker 1] (1:42:39 - 1:42:39)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:40 - 1:42:56)
I mean it's it's it these are just the questions that these are pulling up for me. I mean I don't want you to feel like this is me trying to discourage, but I'm thinking at the point that we're we're looking at um sp uh special um ab permitting this.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:56 - 1:43:05)
Making sure that that context is is super important. So sort of my my things would include the the systems and the

[Speaker 2] (1:43:06 - 1:43:11)
site plan including these adjacencies are two that standing really high for me.

[Speaker 1] (1:43:11 - 1:43:12)
Yeah, no, I think that's

[Speaker 2] (1:43:12 - 1:43:38)
very important. Um and I think the goal here is to get you guys as much input as possible um so that, you know, we can make some updates and make this, you know, a productive process. Um I had a few additional comments, uh just echoing the things that have been said so far. Um I do really like the plans. I like that the height is below fif is fifty feet. Uh doubling the minimum open space, I think is big.

[Speaker 1] (1:43:38 - 1:44:04)
the Glover obviously um the parking being underground I think is a huge positive and um you know I think it's definitely a big improvement on the architectural uh designs that we had previously um a few things that I just wanted to touch on one the the biggest issue for me is the issue that Angela brought up which is the ingress and egress. I think um you know to the extent it's at all possible I'd

[Speaker 1] (1:44:04 - 1:44:14)
I'd really encourage you to put a uh uh an entrance and exit um uh on the Marblehead side. Um Salem Street is otherwise going to be

[Speaker 1] (1:44:15 - 1:44:27)
um pretty difficult I think with the traffic here and to um to you know following up on that uh I haven't seen the amended um traffic study obviously right um and

[Speaker 1] (1:44:28 - 1:44:54)
I don't know. There could be something in there that makes me totally comfortable, but I just don't know. So I would encourage you to just get a full traffic study. I think there's still time for your project at this point. I wouldn't want you to be here, I don't know, a month from now or more and that's still an issue. I think seeing a full traffic study would give a lot of people, you know, comfort around one of the bigger impacts that I think people are concerned with on the project.

[Speaker 2] (1:44:54 - 1:45:05)
Um, uh juror mentioned facilities and utilities. Um is there bike parking on the site? I don't know if I saw that. There is?

[Speaker 9] (1:45:05 - 1:45:08)
I believe by code it's going to require uh

[Speaker 2] (1:45:08 - 1:45:08)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (1:45:08 - 1:45:08)
Yeah.

[Speaker 9] (1:45:08 - 1:45:10)
some bike as well as uh

[Speaker 7] (1:45:11 - 1:45:11)
E.V.

[Speaker 9] (1:45:11 - 1:45:12)
E_V_

[Speaker 7] (1:45:12 - 1:45:12)
What?

[Speaker 9] (1:45:12 - 1:45:12)
E_V_

[Speaker 10] (1:45:12 - 1:45:12)
E_V_

[Speaker 7] (1:45:12 - 1:45:13)
Okay.

[Speaker 10] (1:45:13 - 1:45:13)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:45:13 - 1:45:17)
Yeah, these these will be considered as we get closer to construction.

[Speaker 10] (1:45:17 - 1:45:17)
Yep.

[Speaker 1] (1:45:17 - 1:45:22)
And we also have the ability to speak to some of the questions that have been

[Speaker 10] (1:45:22 - 1:45:22)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:45:22 - 1:45:25)
uh unless you guys prefer to finish with

[Speaker 10] (1:45:25 - 1:45:30)
Um, you know what, let's let's continue going going through. Um

[Speaker 10] (1:45:31 - 1:45:36)
Those are more just, I think, comments for you to take in. I know that you have to respond right now, so we can continue to move down.

[Speaker 1] (1:45:36 - 1:45:42)
We do have a traffic report that was completed, and then also we're ready to speak to the circulation and

[Speaker 10] (1:45:42 - 1:45:42)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:45:42 - 1:45:45)
feasibility of underground parking as well so.

[Speaker 10] (1:45:45 - 1:45:50)
Okay, alright, let's let's do that after the Angela and Bill, do you guys have anything else that you wanna add?

[Speaker 7] (1:45:51 - 1:45:54)
Not at the moment. I'm going to I'd like to just hear some

[Speaker 10] (1:45:54 - 1:45:55)
Sure, yeah.

[Speaker 7] (1:45:55 - 1:45:55)
comments.

[Speaker 9] (1:45:55 - 1:46:03)
So I read through the seven the uh the staff comments, the uh fire department and police had significant comments. Did they get those yet?

[Speaker 7] (1:46:04 - 1:46:06)
Well we're I think we're gonna be able

[Speaker 10] (1:46:06 - 1:46:07)
You're about I think the big one is the ingress and the egress.

[Speaker 1] (1:46:07 - 1:46:08)
Right.

[Speaker 10] (1:46:08 - 1:46:08)
Correct.

[Speaker 9] (1:46:08 - 1:46:08)
Right, yeah.

[Speaker 7] (1:46:08 - 1:46:09)
I think that's yeah,

[Speaker 9] (1:46:09 - 1:46:09)
Um

[Speaker 7] (1:46:09 - 1:46:10)
the those are

[Speaker 9] (1:46:10 - 1:46:14)
the surface parking that's shown here, that's mostly visitor parking or general parking

[Speaker 1] (1:46:14 - 1:46:14)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 9] (1:46:14 - 1:46:17)
in addition to the underground parking?

[Speaker 9] (1:46:18 - 1:46:19)
So that's, I think, where the

[Speaker 9] (1:46:22 - 1:46:29)
the congestion for the fire and ambulance access is gonna be right around that first corner there, and that has to go for the rest of the facility.

[Speaker 7] (1:46:29 - 1:46:29)
Mm.

[Speaker 9] (1:46:29 - 1:46:36)
And especially the building that's actually right on uh is it Vernon Street or Tedesco Street?

[Speaker 9] (1:46:36 - 1:46:39)
There's very little access to that for uh

[Speaker 9] (1:46:41 - 1:46:46)
other than parking on Vernon Street or at the very end of of the parking dead end.

[Speaker 11] (1:46:46 - 1:47:03)
So I think uh I agree uh uh an exit point on the marble head side will go a long way um and then is there enough distance between the buildings for fire and all that kind of equipment to get in and things like that?

[Speaker 3] (1:47:04 - 1:47:04)
They I

[Speaker 3] (1:47:06 - 1:47:10)
think fire um their comments were pretty clear that um

[Speaker 11] (1:47:10 - 1:47:10)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:47:11 - 1:47:16)
There's been an an emergency access point added between buildings one and two on Vernon Street.

[Speaker 11] (1:47:18 - 1:47:18)
Right.

[Speaker 10] (1:47:18 - 1:47:18)
That's right.

[Speaker 10] (1:47:19 - 1:47:19)
Right.

[Speaker 3] (1:47:19 - 1:47:22)
For a vehicular emergency access or vehicles?

[Speaker 11] (1:47:24 - 1:47:24)
Vehicular.

[Speaker 7] (1:47:26 - 1:47:33)
So that's for the surface surface lot, is that what you're saying? So there won't be any additional access to the underground garage?

[Speaker 1] (1:47:34 - 1:47:35)
Correct.

[Speaker 13] (1:47:37 - 1:47:50)
What about delivery trucks and so forth? So they'll go in, um they'll all enter, so they still all enter, all the deliveries would enter on Vinton Street, and on the surface lot I'm guessing.

[Speaker 13] (1:47:52 - 1:47:55)
Like all the UPS trucks and the Amazon trucks and, you know.

[Speaker 1] (1:47:56 - 1:47:59)
Yeah, we don't have a service entrance on Vennon.

[Speaker 3] (1:47:59 - 1:48:00)
Salem.

[Speaker 1] (1:48:01 - 1:48:19)
On Salem there's a facilities building that will be utilized for maintenance and it will have the traffic of roughly a single family home, given that that that's that area will primarily be used to service the 140 residential units and to upkeep the

[Speaker 13] (1:48:19 - 1:48:20)
I meant sort of

[Speaker 1] (1:48:20 - 1:48:20)
property.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:20 - 1:48:23)
deliveries for individual for apartment buildings,

[Speaker 1] (1:48:23 - 1:48:23)
Sure.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:23 - 1:48:24)
so packages,

[Speaker 13] (1:48:24 - 1:48:25)
stuff like that.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:26 - 1:48:35)
So you know we've been just on you know my street alone there there I get to see you know a ton of trucks up and down all the time so I'm just assuming there'll be deliveries.

[Speaker 1] (1:48:36 - 1:48:39)
Right, yeah, at the uh the facilities building.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:39 - 1:48:39)
Oh,

[Speaker 2] (1:48:39 - 1:48:39)
Oh,

[Speaker 13] (1:48:39 - 1:48:39)
so they

[Speaker 2] (1:48:39 - 1:48:40)
that's

[Speaker 13] (1:48:40 - 1:48:40)
have to leave

[Speaker 2] (1:48:40 - 1:48:40)
that's

[Speaker 13] (1:48:40 - 1:48:40)
And at night,

[Speaker 2] (1:48:40 - 1:48:41)
where the mailboxes

[Speaker 13] (1:48:41 - 1:48:41)
they have to go around?

[Speaker 2] (1:48:41 - 1:48:42)
are and

[Speaker 1] (1:48:42 - 1:48:43)
And the amenity buildings.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:43 - 1:48:44)
Oh, the amenity building.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:44 - 1:48:44)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:44 - 1:48:44)
Oh,

[Speaker 13] (1:48:44 - 1:48:44)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:44 - 1:48:45)
so the the

[Speaker 3] (1:48:45 - 1:48:46)
Clubhouse.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:46 - 1:48:46)
clubhouse.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:46 - 1:48:46)
Oh,

[Speaker 1] (1:48:46 - 1:48:46)
Clubhouse,

[Speaker 13] (1:48:46 - 1:48:47)
okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:48:47 - 1:48:47)
excuse me.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:47 - 1:48:47)
Oh, ex okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:48:47 - 1:48:48)
That's right.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:48 - 1:48:49)
Now I understand.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:49 - 1:48:49)
Okay.

[Speaker 13] (1:48:49 - 1:48:51)
So everything would get delivered there and then

[Speaker 1] (1:48:51 - 1:48:51)
Yeah, and

[Speaker 13] (1:48:51 - 1:48:51)
the

[Speaker 1] (1:48:51 - 1:48:51)
then

[Speaker 13] (1:48:51 - 1:48:53)
staff would deliver it Okay, to them.

[Speaker 1] (1:48:53 - 1:49:00)
and then daily we'll have a maintenance a maintenance manager with a pick-up truck that will collect trash from the buildings.

[Speaker 13] (1:49:00 - 1:49:01)
Okay, I read that.

[Speaker 13] (1:49:01 - 1:49:03)
that. Also, thank you.

[Speaker 3] (1:49:03 - 1:49:03)
Okay.

[Speaker 11] (1:49:03 - 1:49:04)
Most of the trash

[Speaker 2] (1:49:04 - 1:49:04)
Talk can through

[Speaker 11] (1:49:04 - 1:49:04)
be

[Speaker 2] (1:49:04 - 1:49:04)
that

[Speaker 11] (1:49:04 - 1:49:04)
brought

[Speaker 2] (1:49:04 - 1:49:09)
process a little bit, so that they, that'll be collected within the property and then

[Speaker 2] (1:49:15 - 1:49:15)
Yeah, taken off-site.

[Speaker 1] (1:49:15 - 1:49:16)
taken off-site okay.

[Speaker 3] (1:49:17 - 1:49:18)
By the ma by the management.

[Speaker 2] (1:49:18 - 1:49:19)
Yeah, private collection.

[Speaker 1] (1:49:19 - 1:49:20)
Bill, did you have something else?

[Speaker 4] (1:49:21 - 1:49:23)
No, I was just wondering how that was gonna go, but

[Speaker 1] (1:49:23 - 1:49:23)
Okay.

[Speaker 4] (1:49:23 - 1:49:29)
uh same question as Jerry was asking it at the moment. Um so the trash will will not stop at the

[Speaker 4] (1:49:29 - 1:49:37)
clubhouse or the facility building. It'll get picked up in a pickup truck from each of the individual buildings and go off-site someplace.

[Speaker 1] (1:49:37 - 1:49:37)
Correct.

[Speaker 4] (1:49:38 - 1:49:40)
And then snow storage, I guess,

[Speaker 4] (1:49:41 - 1:49:45)
is another thing we usually uh ask about. So

[Speaker 1] (1:49:45 - 1:49:45)
But

[Speaker 4] (1:49:45 - 1:49:54)
am I reading this right that to get into the underground parking, say you live in building two in Marblehead, the underground parking access is gonna be through Salem Street.

[Speaker 1] (1:49:55 - 1:49:55)
I

[Speaker 5] (1:49:54 - 1:49:55)
Oh, underneath.

[Speaker 5] (1:49:56 - 1:49:56)
Alright.

[Speaker 3] (1:49:56 - 1:49:57)
Yeah.

[Speaker 6] (1:49:57 - 1:50:09)
Correct. So the there's two the two access points. There's the surface level access and the underground is both on Salem Street. So you would use either or and kind of circulate. It's a full looped underground parking garage.

[Speaker 4] (1:50:10 - 1:50:12)
Uh full loop underground.

[Speaker 3] (1:50:12 - 1:50:16)
You go in one way and they can loop all the way around the site and come out the other way.

[Speaker 4] (1:50:16 - 1:50:17)
Come out where?

[Speaker 3] (1:50:17 - 1:50:18)
The same

[Speaker 7] (1:50:18 - 1:50:26)
place. Same place. Entrance. Do you guys maybe we should let them do you guys want to do the the um circulation plan I feel like let maybe we should do that. That's Okay. Okay.

[Speaker 7] (1:50:26 - 1:50:28)
But a lot of our questions seem to

[Speaker 4] (1:50:28 - 1:50:29)
be So it was like a two lane road in there?

[Speaker 7] (1:50:30 - 1:50:31)
Yeah, So I feel like like a

[Speaker 6] (1:50:31 - 1:50:38)
I think it would make sense you could pull up the the architectural plans include on a3 a garage floor plan So that might be helpful

[Speaker 6] (1:50:39 - 1:50:45)
I'll just see. So this is the site plan that we prepared as the engineer.

[Speaker 6] (1:50:45 - 1:50:51)
And then the architectural plans included the underground parking plan that shows that. And just to provide a little bit of clarity,

[Speaker 6] (1:50:51 - 1:50:59)
so our office submitted a traffic assessment report. So we utilized kind of IT data to check the trip generation,

[Speaker 6] (1:50:59 - 1:51:03)
you know, kind of looking at how many trips does this site generate.

[Speaker 6] (1:51:03 - 1:51:05)
I'm sure this board sees it.

[Speaker 6] (1:51:05 - 1:51:10)
quite a bit and what we really wanted to do there is just to kind of showcase that this

[Speaker 6] (1:51:11 - 1:51:16)
project is in accordance with the findings that were in 2023. The chip generation,

[Speaker 6] (1:51:16 - 1:51:18)
kind of the impact,

[Speaker 6] (1:51:18 - 1:51:21)
you know, are, you know, essentially identical.

[Speaker 6] (1:51:21 - 1:51:23)
There are changes, right?

[Speaker 6] (1:51:23 - 1:51:27)
The original plan had different access points. So we did not do additional counts.

[Speaker 6] (1:51:27 - 1:51:31)
We did not do synchro where we run trips through intersections.

[Speaker 6] (1:51:31 - 1:51:35)
But what we found is it's about 50 trips.

[Speaker 6] (1:51:35 - 1:51:37)
If we were to take credits for...

[Speaker 6] (1:51:37 - 1:51:40)
public transit, bike facilities,

[Speaker 6] (1:51:40 - 1:52:02)
Uber or kind of ride share as the original plan approved in 2023 we would be below that 50-foot threshold and what that kind of tells us kind of the same findings that were happened in 2023 by the consultant in the peer review is when you're when you're below that trip threshold you know you will not have a significant impact so we understand it's a busy intersection I'm not saying it is I work in Salem

[Speaker 6] (1:52:02 - 1:52:06)
I live in Marblehead. I drive through all the time. But what we're kind of saying is the findings,

[Speaker 6] (1:52:06 - 1:52:09)
they're going to be the same as they were in 2023,

[Speaker 6] (1:52:10 - 1:52:11)
that it won't be a significant impact.

[Speaker 6] (1:52:11 - 1:52:13)
I'm not saying there's not going to be more trips.

[Speaker 6] (1:52:13 - 1:52:15)
And I think it was well said, right?

[Speaker 6] (1:52:15 - 1:52:20)
Any commercial use, you know, a bank, we do a lot of retail work as well. A Chase bank,

[Speaker 6] (1:52:20 - 1:52:24)
which is a little bit further kind of down the road towards what the mall is happening,

[Speaker 6] (1:52:24 - 1:52:29)
generates about 80, you know, trips in the same peak hour. So you can kind of see a bank.

[Speaker 6] (1:52:29 - 1:52:56)
Bank, a single three thousand square foot bank is almost double um in the peak hour. Um but just kind of hopping over here. So here is the the underground um garage plan. So you can see that there's that the entrance point is on Salem Avenue, kind of furthest to the the plan right. Um it's a two-way kind of underground circulation. So vehicle entering you know can kind of continue straight kind of towards the the Tedesco end of the property or it could kind of go left toward

[Speaker 6] (1:52:56 - 1:53:09)
towards, you know, kind of parallel with Salem or Vinnin, um they can kind of go and and either direction around. And there will be kind of pedestrian egress points, you know, at each building for people to kind of get up and down into their their buildings uh elevators.

[Speaker 3] (1:53:10 - 1:53:10)
And

[Speaker 6] (1:53:10 - 1:53:10)
Um

[Speaker 3] (1:53:10 - 1:53:15)
in my understanding is there's only a hundred and eight assigned spots underground,

[Speaker 3] (1:53:15 - 1:53:19)
right? The the surface spots are not assigned? Is that what I heard?

[Speaker 1] (1:53:19 - 1:53:19)
They were

[Speaker 7] (1:53:19 - 1:53:19)
So

[Speaker 1] (1:53:19 - 1:53:19)
Yes.

[Speaker 7] (1:53:19 - 1:53:20)
Hey there, they're

[Speaker 3] (1:53:20 - 1:53:23)
So we don't have one per you.

[Speaker 3] (1:53:22 - 1:53:25)
per unit even at this point, right, like one a sign.

[Speaker 7] (1:53:25 - 1:53:26)
So go

[Speaker 8] (1:53:26 - 1:53:26)
One

[Speaker 7] (1:53:26 - 1:53:26)
away.

[Speaker 8] (1:53:26 - 1:53:26)
seventy.

[Speaker 9] (1:53:28 - 1:53:30)
As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong,

[Speaker 7] (1:53:30 - 1:53:30)
uh Morris.

[Speaker 9] (1:53:30 - 1:53:38)
they they have underground the one point five. The additional spaces that go beyond that were anticipated

[Speaker 3] (1:53:38 - 1:53:41)
But there's a hundred and forty four units and a hundred and eight parking spots,

[Speaker 7] (1:53:41 - 1:53:42)
Or than a hundred.

[Speaker 3] (1:53:42 - 1:53:42)
so right.

[Speaker 7] (1:53:42 - 1:53:44)
It's a what's the number?

[Speaker 3] (1:53:44 - 1:53:45)
I am I missing that?

[Speaker 4] (1:53:46 - 1:53:46)
Mm.

[Speaker 3] (1:53:46 - 1:53:48)
That's what the show is on the cover page on the

[Speaker 6] (1:53:48 - 1:53:49)
Yeah, just to clarify,

[Speaker 6] (1:53:49 - 1:53:52)
so there's 62 surface parking spaces.

[Speaker 3] (1:53:53 - 1:53:53)
Oh,

[Speaker 6] (1:53:53 - 1:53:53)
Um

[Speaker 3] (1:53:53 - 1:53:54)
well I didn't notice.

[Speaker 6] (1:53:55 - 1:53:56)
And then there is there's

[Speaker 3] (1:53:56 - 1:53:57)
So this parking,

[Speaker 3] (1:53:58 - 1:53:58)
the okay,

[Speaker 6] (1:53:58 - 1:54:00)
170 underground spaces.

[Speaker 3] (1:54:00 - 1:54:01)
okay.

[Speaker 6] (1:54:01 - 1:54:02)
And I would say

[Speaker 3] (1:54:02 - 1:54:02)
I

[Speaker 6] (1:54:02 - 1:54:02)
assigned

[Speaker 3] (1:54:02 - 1:54:02)
think it's, is

[Speaker 6] (1:54:02 - 1:54:03)
is a

[Speaker 3] (1:54:03 - 1:54:04)
it a chart that's saying correct, then I?

[Speaker 6] (1:54:04 - 1:54:15)
is an interesting we're right so there are there are 26 surface spaces and 62 underground spaces that are assigned to Marblehead in terms of meeting the parking requirement.

[Speaker 6] (1:54:15 - 1:54:19)
And then there are 36 surface spaces and 108 underground spaces.

[Speaker 6] (1:54:19 - 1:54:46)
is assigned to kind of the swampscot development to meet the parking requirement now that doesn't mean that it's one to one or some different now as as the development kind of goes and puts together and similarly to what happened right there there is a transportation management plan that the kind of management team will put together that's where they'll decide you know who gets what parking space what makes the most sense right building you know i would you know my opinion right you want people that live in building three parking below building

[Speaker 6] (1:54:46 - 1:54:46)
below Building 3,

[Speaker 6] (1:54:46 - 1:54:47)
Building 5, etc.

[Speaker 6] (1:54:47 - 1:54:56)
So that will be kind of worked out from an operational perspective. But in terms of the term assign we're using is ensuring that we're meeting the parking requirement

[Speaker 3] (1:54:56 - 1:54:56)
Okay.

[Speaker 6] (1:54:56 - 1:54:57)
from a zoning perspective.

[Speaker 3] (1:54:57 - 1:54:57)
Thank you.

[Speaker 1] (1:54:58 - 1:55:00)
And then also one additional thing to add.

[Speaker 1] (1:55:00 - 1:55:04)
If you've spent some time around town,

[Speaker 1] (1:55:04 - 1:55:05)
I more recently have,

[Speaker 1] (1:55:06 - 1:55:08)
you know, a lot of the traffic's on Benin.

[Speaker 10] (1:55:09 - 1:55:29)
Salem, there's multiple options to get into Swampscott. The traffic's on Vinnan, so we've intentionally put the access points on Salem. And you've heard that here from our engineer that the reports in the previous studies verify that there will be minimal impact. So just wanted to reiterate that point.

[Speaker 9] (1:55:32 - 1:55:59)
If you have any questions of us, you know, please feel free to ask them, because I think this is the appropriate time. Obviously we'll get to give you our overview based upon the input that we've received, the earlier input that we received when we were before the developmental team as far as we were also before a interdepartmental here group that were giving us their input as well. Uh I would say this just as an overview before I I give my final

[Speaker 9] (1:55:59 - 1:56:03)
a final summation, uh we wanted to create the best project we could,

[Speaker 9] (1:56:04 - 1:56:26)
uh which has a lot of elements to it, a lot of moving parts. Um the most important aspects of this project were the ones that were given to us through the three and a half year process of the earlier iterations, be it the Leg of McCall, be it the National Development. Uh we've gone to, number one, saving the General Glover, which was the original charge. The second was when I watched the in over

[Speaker 9] (1:56:26 - 1:56:27)
overheard the National Development Project,

[Speaker 9] (1:56:28 - 1:56:45)
which was a an attempt uh even though I didn't think it was terribly successful of creating uh architecturally pleasing structures. Um as far as the uh traffic is concerned, um this was a self charge, this was trying to create from their perspective the best

[Speaker 9] (1:56:46 - 1:56:51)
traffic study for those people that were living there.

[Speaker 9] (1:56:52 - 1:57:17)
I in a perfect world it is kind of ironic because I live on Salem Street I would say you know put it in Marblehead but they were telling me that the way to best utilize the traffic is number one have one entry and one exit they explained to me as I'll explain to you and I'm sure you probably know as much as I do about this is you look at a trash a garage an underground garage they don't have multiple entry and exit points

[Speaker 9] (1:57:18 - 1:57:20)
It comes in one and out the same area.

[Speaker 9] (1:57:20 - 1:57:27)
They do that because they can regulate traffic. They don't, everyone's flying out at the same time. That's the way it was explained to me. Um

[Speaker 9] (1:57:28 - 1:57:32)
Obviously, there's one other element, and that's the finance. And obviously,

[Speaker 9] (1:57:33 - 1:57:37)
you're very well aware that this could have been done much more cheaply.

[Speaker 9] (1:57:37 - 1:57:41)
You know, they could have theoretically come back with a Leggett McCullough approach,

[Speaker 9] (1:57:41 - 1:57:42)
but that wasn't it.

[Speaker 9] (1:57:43 - 1:57:45)
Because when they came to talk to me initially,

[Speaker 9] (1:57:45 - 1:57:48)
they said, what do you think the town of Swampscott wants?

[Speaker 9] (1:57:48 - 1:57:51)
And I told them, it was very clear to me what I thought they wanted,

[Speaker 9] (1:57:51 - 1:57:53)
not what they could get away.

[Speaker 9] (1:57:53 - 1:58:11)
what they could what they could possibly sell to you because you'd already approved a far less pleasing plan than than what's here today the other thing that was terribly important at least from my perspective and looking at this was there's so much green that wouldn't have been there it would have been all surface parking

[Speaker 9] (1:58:12 - 1:58:16)
It's pretty obvious that the expense of underground parking is enormous.

[Speaker 9] (1:58:17 - 1:58:23)
But at the end of the day, they want to be able to have renters who want to live there because it's a beautiful place to live.

[Speaker 9] (1:58:24 - 1:58:27)
And I think they're successful.

[Speaker 9] (1:58:27 - 1:58:29)
Can there be minor refinements to anything?

[Speaker 9] (1:58:30 - 1:58:36)
Of course. I would expect nothing less than George Germer to come up with some suggestions which would improve.

[Speaker 9] (1:58:37 - 1:59:03)
what I thought was was unimprovable but that's just the nature of what of what architects do and we appreciate those comments and we'd like to invite as many as possible what we're ultimately looking for is this we'd like from a financial perspective to be able to get the shovel in the ground before the ground freezes so we're under the gun why did why are we there because we didn't have any ownership of the property until we had a purchase

[Speaker 9] (1:59:03 - 1:59:04)
sincere agreement.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:04 - 1:59:06)
which just was finalized.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:06 - 1:59:15)
You know, otherwise we couldn't. We also understand that we're under the gun from the current owner who has, by the way, just for purposes of edification,

[Speaker 1] (1:59:16 - 1:59:21)
the demolition delay on his application expired on July the 20th.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:22 - 1:59:25)
In theory, it's not going to happen,

[Speaker 1] (1:59:25 - 1:59:31)
but in theory, on July the 21st, the owner of that property could have come in and demolished the General Glover house.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:33 - 1:59:36)
That's not going to happen because now under our purchase and sale agreement,

[Speaker 1] (1:59:36 - 1:59:38)
you know, we have certain rights.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:38 - 1:59:44)
We don't own the property yet, but we have an owner who's very anxious to get rid of this property now,

[Speaker 1] (1:59:44 - 1:59:47)
even though they've held onto it for 30 years. And that's why.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:47 - 1:59:49)
You see the deterioration.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:49 - 1:59:55)
You know, that's why I think the Historical Commission was so willing to support our approach,

[Speaker 1] (1:59:55 - 1:59:59)
which was saving the building on its current location.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:00 - 2:00:02)
and helping improve it.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:03 - 2:00:06)
And that's ultimately, I think, what's going to happen.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:06 - 2:00:09)
And I also want to take the opportunity to thank someone in particular,

[Speaker 1] (2:00:10 - 2:00:14)
and that's Nancy Schultz. Because if it wasn't for Dr.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:14 - 2:00:15)
Schultz...

[Speaker 1] (2:00:15 - 2:00:20)
That building would have been removed, that Glover House would have been removed three and a half years ago,

[Speaker 1] (2:00:20 - 2:00:30)
but it's there today because of the diligence and the concern of those that wanted to maintain something that was clearly preservable, historically significant.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:32 - 2:00:35)
I'm repeating what she's repeated a million times to a million different people,

[Speaker 1] (2:00:35 - 2:00:38)
which is now becoming part of what she does for a living,

[Speaker 1] (2:00:38 - 2:00:41)
which is trying to save the Glover House,

[Speaker 1] (2:00:41 - 2:00:46)
is that George Washington, Lafayette, all of those dignitaries stayed at that property.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:47 - 2:00:50)
This was the guy that ferried 250 years ago.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:51 - 2:00:52)
Washington across the Delaware.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:52 - 2:01:03)
This is important and this building is going to stay and it's going to stay in perpetuity and it's something that I think you all we all owe a debt of gratitude to Dr.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:04 - 2:01:13)
Schultz because she single-handedly kept this building standing and and when we appeared and we explained the circumstances the historical commission

[Speaker 1] (2:01:14 - 2:01:14)
was torn.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:14 - 2:01:17)
You know, there was some that wanted to keep every structure,

[Speaker 1] (2:01:17 - 2:01:20)
but in a perfect world that couldn't happen.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:20 - 2:01:23)
Every day that goes by, by the way, just so you'll understand,

[Speaker 1] (2:01:23 - 2:01:29)
we're not even permitted to put a tarp on that building today until we own that building.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:29 - 2:01:35)
Every day there's a little more deterioration to the General Glover House or the General Glover Farmhouse,

[Speaker 1] (2:01:35 - 2:01:39)
and that's going to stop once we take ownership. And once we get...

[Speaker 1] (2:01:39 - 2:01:41)
The approval for the plan review,

[Speaker 1] (2:01:41 - 2:01:52)
we're going to take ownership and once we take ownership we can we can do that and and the other thing I'll just mention this is maybe outside of my prerogative but I'm going to do it anyway.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:53 - 2:01:55)
If there's any lumber,

[Speaker 1] (2:01:55 - 2:01:58)
and I know that John Lehman from the Historical Commission asked that question,

[Speaker 1] (2:01:58 - 2:02:04)
in that little house that could be utilized for the further restoration,

[Speaker 1] (2:02:05 - 2:02:09)
that's going to be available to the Historical Commission, I would think.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:11 - 2:02:17)
We couldn't guarantee and we couldn't guarantee it then and we can't guarantee it now because all the hard numbers aren't in.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:17 - 2:02:33)
But whatever we can do to work together cooperatively we will and I think that should be so self-evident from the time and the money that's been put in by this group which has been distinctive from the other two iterations that you've seen and we truly need your support.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:35 - 2:02:40)
I can't answer every question. I know there are those that are here that can answer far more than I,

[Speaker 1] (2:02:40 - 2:02:45)
but they've told me that this is from a traffic perspective,

[Speaker 1] (2:02:45 - 2:02:47)
this is the best they can do.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:48 - 2:02:51)
In a world where this building was located somewhere else,

[Speaker 1] (2:02:52 - 2:02:53)
you know, maybe there would have been other alternatives.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:54 - 2:02:56)
But under the circumstances, looking at Finan Square,

[Speaker 1] (2:02:56 - 2:02:58)
looking at the Finan traffic patterns,

[Speaker 1] (2:02:58 - 2:03:08)
by keeping a single entry and a single exit in that location, they advised me was the preferable approach. As far as the design is concerned,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:08 - 2:03:14)
they said we have created what we believe to be distinctive buildings that have character.

[Speaker 1] (2:03:14 - 2:03:21)
which is consistent, even though you heard that from national development, consistent with the architectural needs of this community.

[Speaker 1] (2:03:21 - 2:03:25)
I also said as much green spaces we can create.

[Speaker 1] (2:03:25 - 2:03:28)
That would be preferable, and they've done that as well.

[Speaker 1] (2:03:28 - 2:03:30)
I'm proud to be a part of this project.

[Speaker 1] (2:03:31 - 2:03:35)
As much as it will have an impact on anyone who lives in that area,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:35 - 2:03:36)
including myself,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:36 - 2:03:44)
it's a far better approach than the 30 years of derelict ownership that's been shown. And I think...

[Speaker 1] (2:03:44 - 2:03:46)
Tax dollar aside,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:46 - 2:03:49)
it will generate funds for the town of Swampscott,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:49 - 2:03:55)
and I think all of those factors taken together are more than enough sufficient answers,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:55 - 2:03:58)
the answer to the minutiae of questions that can be raised,

[Speaker 1] (2:03:58 - 2:04:11)
even though that's your charge and we understand that, we appreciate it, we think we've given you something that you should feel comfortable with. If you wish to condition the plan review, because it's as it was explained and as you're well aware.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:11 - 2:04:12)
We're, it's in our right.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:12 - 2:04:14)
It's done under the smart growth.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:15 - 2:04:16)
approach.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:16 - 2:04:21)
So we're doing it also based upon the Section 410 that talks about the number of units.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:21 - 2:04:33)
So everything is not only dimensionally conforming, it's conforming to the thrust and the impetus and the charge when you created that zoning overlay district.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:34 - 2:04:34)
Thanks,

[Speaker 1] (2:04:34 - 2:04:34)
So we

[Speaker 2] (2:04:34 - 2:04:34)
Attorney

[Speaker 1] (2:04:34 - 2:04:34)
feel comfortable.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:34 - 2:04:35)
Schutzer.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:35 - 2:04:36)
Thank you very much.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:36 - 2:04:39)
With that, I think we're going to move on to public comment.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:39 - 2:04:40)
There's a lot of people here.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:41 - 2:04:48)
Uh I'm gonna ask that maybe people just line up and uh state your name, 'cause I don't want Krista to have to run around uh with the microphone.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:50 - 2:04:52)
Good evening. My name is Ken Moss.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:52 - 2:04:54)
I live on Tedesco Pond Place,

[Speaker 1] (2:04:54 - 2:04:55)
my wife Amy,

[Speaker 1] (2:04:55 - 2:04:59)
and we have six or seven other residents of Tedesco Pond Place.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:59 - 2:05:03)
We are one of the major abutters to this project.

[Speaker 1] (2:05:03 - 2:05:08)
I know that everybody has some major concerns about the traffic,

[Speaker 1] (2:05:08 - 2:05:12)
particularly on Vinan slash Tedesco Street.

[Speaker 1] (2:05:13 - 2:05:16)
It has been horrendous for years.

[Speaker 1] (2:05:17 - 2:05:32)
And I think the other unknown with this is that the impact of the stop and shop development, that 160 units over there is going to have on all of Vin and Square traffic.

[Speaker 1] (2:05:33 - 2:05:39)
I want to point out that this may be a business district, but it's also a residential district.

[Speaker 3] (2:05:40 - 2:05:44)
This will affect residents all along Tedesco Street,

[Speaker 3] (2:05:44 - 2:05:47)
back down Salem Street significantly.

[Speaker 3] (2:05:49 - 2:05:55)
A question for the developers, will they guarantee the development of the Glover House,

[Speaker 3] (2:05:55 - 2:05:57)
the rehabilitation of the Glover House?

[Speaker 2] (2:05:59 - 2:06:04)
I'm just going to ask that we go through the public comments and we'll take a list and then we can bring those questions back at the end.

[Speaker 3] (2:06:05 - 2:06:17)
And then the only other comment to Attorney D'Ambrosio is if you think that the Uber and train is going to solve the traffic problems here,

[Speaker 3] (2:06:17 - 2:06:21)
it's preposterous. It's not going to affect anything.

[Speaker 3] (2:06:22 - 2:06:24)
People are going to be driving their cars.

[Speaker 3] (2:06:24 - 2:06:26)
That's all.

[Speaker 2] (2:06:26 - 2:06:27)
Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (2:06:28 - 2:06:30)
Please just go up to the microphone.

[Speaker 2] (2:06:32 - 2:06:33)
Quick open.

[Speaker 1] (2:06:33 - 2:06:34)
Chairman, we,

[Speaker 2] (2:06:34 - 2:06:39)
Oh, sorry, sorry Chris, if you want, if you ha if Chris is right there, I didn't realise.

[Speaker 1] (2:06:39 - 2:06:44)
Yeah, I mean it's just just a matter of procedure. Do you wish to have those that wish to speak in favour or in opposition

[Speaker 2] (2:06:44 - 2:06:46)
No, I'm just gonna let people go in the order that

[Speaker 1] (2:06:46 - 2:06:46)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (2:06:46 - 2:06:47)
they raised their hand.

[Speaker 1] (2:06:47 - 2:06:48)
Okay.

[Speaker 1] (2:06:54 - 2:07:06)
Chris Drukis, attorney representing Fidisco Country Club as well, at which I happen to be a member as well. With me tonight is the president of the club, Ralph James,

[Speaker 1] (2:07:07 - 2:07:10)
and I'm sure there's several other members.

[Speaker 1] (2:07:11 - 2:07:17)
I can say that we had the good fortune to meet with...

[Speaker 1] (2:07:19 - 2:07:21)
Mr. D.G. Marino,

[Speaker 1] (2:07:21 - 2:07:23)
Attorney D.G. Marino, excuse me,

[Speaker 1] (2:07:23 - 2:07:30)
Attorney D'Ambrosio, as well as other representatives of the developer,

[Speaker 1] (2:07:30 - 2:07:34)
about two weeks ago, I think on the 1st.

[Speaker 1] (2:07:34 - 2:07:42)
And we had asked for some information and...

[Speaker 1] (2:07:42 - 2:07:46)
We have not received all of the information that we had asked for.

[Speaker 1] (2:07:46 - 2:07:54)
We did receive today a couple of items which I guess were filed as well about one o'clock today.

[Speaker 1] (2:07:54 - 2:07:58)
That makes it very difficult for us to really comment on them.

[Speaker 1] (2:07:59 - 2:08:06)
But what I would say to you is that I think before deliberations start on this,

[Speaker 1] (2:08:06 - 2:08:09)
that you establish that the filing is complete.

[Speaker 1] (2:08:09 - 2:08:13)
And I would suggest to you that the filing here is nowhere near complete.

[Speaker 1] (2:08:14 - 2:08:15)
I don't see a landscape plan.

[Speaker 1] (2:08:15 - 2:08:26)
I don't see a lot of the requirements that are listed in the zoning bylaw, including the affordable housing restriction.

[Speaker 1] (2:08:27 - 2:08:31)
which is supposed to be a written document that's prepared,

[Speaker 1] (2:08:31 - 2:08:31)
agreed to,

[Speaker 1] (2:08:32 - 2:08:40)
and filed with you before you can make a decision on this particular matter.

[Speaker 1] (2:08:40 - 2:08:43)
And I think until all of those things are done,

[Speaker 1] (2:08:43 - 2:08:48)
it's nice for them to say a lot of the things that I heard today,

[Speaker 1] (2:08:49 - 2:08:50)
but without the detail.

[Speaker 4] (2:08:51 - 2:08:58)
I don't know how you can move forward with this, and I would suggest that we've heard from them tonight.

[Speaker 1] (2:08:58 - 2:09:02)
I think that you're going to have to continue this meeting anyway.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:02 - 2:09:06)
But I think that they've already got homework to do.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:06 - 2:09:18)
Let's have them do their homework and come back and after that information is available to everyone that we have the opportunity to make an analysis.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:18 - 2:09:25)
One of the big problems for us in looking at this particular development as opposed to the last one,

[Speaker 1] (2:09:25 - 2:09:28)
if you look, they've added a building.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:28 - 2:09:32)
Now, along our property line that wasn't there before.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:32 - 2:09:44)
And they happen to have added it in probably the most dangerous place that they could have added a building for this development in that the further away from the T it is,

[Speaker 1] (2:09:44 - 2:09:45)
the more likely it's going to get hit.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:47 - 2:09:57)
We do appreciate some of the things. They did address some of the issues that we enumerated and provided to you concerning the previous plan,

[Speaker 1] (2:09:57 - 2:09:59)
and we do appreciate that.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:59 - 2:10:07)
But our negligence was that we were asleep while the other plan was going forward.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:07 - 2:10:11)
We're no longer asleep and we're very interested in what takes place here.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:11 - 2:10:18)
One of the things I'd like to know, and I think you should be requiring them to provide you with,

[Speaker 1] (2:10:18 - 2:10:26)
I don't know how deep down they're going into the earth to create this garage as well as then the footings that they're going to need to support the buildings.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:27 - 2:10:29)
I think we should have that information.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:29 - 2:10:33)
I think we should have the information as to where the air conditioning equipment is.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:33 - 2:10:38)
I think we should have the information on a lot of things that they've talked about.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:39 - 2:10:41)
providing at some point.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:41 - 2:10:46)
I think until we have that type of information we really can't go forward.

[Speaker 1] (2:10:46 - 2:11:01)
And I hope that one of the things that should be concerned with is that the previous developers abandoned the idea of having a garage and it was because it wasn't cost-effective.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:02 - 2:11:04)
We would hope that the board requires

[Speaker 1] (2:11:06 - 2:11:27)
The information that the project meets the standard that the affordable housing units are calculated consistent with this federal and state guidelines as required under 4.10.11.4.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:27 - 2:11:30)
And that's a financial calculation.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:31 - 2:11:39)
And I think that we should determine whether or not they meet that requirement as an additional item.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:40 - 2:11:47)
Those are the things that we want to see put on the table so that we can understand what the situation is,

[Speaker 1] (2:11:48 - 2:11:52)
and with that, a reserve comments later on.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:53 - 2:11:55)
When we have that information.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:55 - 2:11:56)
May I ask a quick question,

[Speaker 1] (2:11:56 - 2:11:56)
Sure.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:56 - 2:11:57)
clarification?

[Speaker 2] (2:11:57 - 2:12:00)
Which building are you speaking of that was added?

[Speaker 1] (2:12:00 - 2:12:00)
Well,

[Speaker 1] (2:12:00 - 2:12:01)
it's in Mabel Head.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:01 - 2:12:02)
Okay,

[Speaker 1] (2:12:02 - 2:12:02)
So there's

[Speaker 2] (2:12:02 - 2:12:02)
because that

[Speaker 1] (2:12:02 - 2:12:02)
everything

[Speaker 2] (2:12:02 - 2:12:02)
was,

[Speaker 1] (2:12:02 - 2:12:02)
in

[Speaker 2] (2:12:02 - 2:12:03)
Mabel that

[Speaker 1] (2:12:03 - 2:12:03)
Head along the property

[Speaker 2] (2:12:03 - 2:12:05)
was a question I was going to ask, because it's

[Speaker 1] (2:12:05 - 2:12:06)
line.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:06 - 2:12:06)
not.

[Speaker 1] (2:12:06 - 2:12:09)
And I know it's not in your purview.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:09 - 2:12:11)
That's what I'm, that's why I asked that question.

[Speaker 1] (2:12:11 - 2:12:12)
I know that.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:12 - 2:12:12)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:12 - 2:12:13)
I just

[Speaker 1] (2:12:13 - 2:12:13)
I'm

[Speaker 2] (2:12:13 - 2:12:13)
wanted,

[Speaker 1] (2:12:13 - 2:12:14)
not asking you to do anything about

[Speaker 2] (2:12:14 - 2:12:15)
I

[Speaker 1] (2:12:15 - 2:12:15)
that.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:15 - 2:12:18)
just want to clarify that I was imagining it was over there.

[Speaker 3] (2:12:21 - 2:12:23)
Yeah, okay. Um

[Speaker 4] (2:12:24 - 2:12:24)
Sir?

[Speaker 3] (2:12:24 - 2:12:25)
yeah.

[Speaker 4] (2:12:26 - 2:12:40)
My name is Michael Schafer. I live at 5 Tedesco Pond Place in Salem with my wife Barbara. I'm a trustee of the Tedesco Pond Place.

[Speaker 4] (2:12:41 - 2:12:49)
condominiums. And I just, as abutters, we've had similar issues over and over again,

[Speaker 4] (2:12:49 - 2:12:49)
traffic,

[Speaker 4] (2:12:49 - 2:12:50)
traffic,

[Speaker 4] (2:12:50 - 2:12:51)
traffic being one of them.

[Speaker 4] (2:12:51 - 2:12:54)
Just for the record,

[Speaker 4] (2:12:54 - 2:13:06)
someone mentioned that there was a recent update to the 2023 traffic study. My question is, has that or do you plan to have that peer-reviewed?

[Speaker 4] (2:13:07 - 2:13:11)
Question one. Second question is with regards to parking.

[Speaker 4] (2:13:12 - 2:13:15)
If there's an assigned parking spot for each unit,

[Speaker 4] (2:13:15 - 2:13:19)
I guess one and a half for Swampscott people and two for Marblehead.

[Speaker 4] (2:13:19 - 2:13:25)
Is there sufficient space left for their guests,

[Speaker 4] (2:13:25 - 2:13:33)
the guests of 140 people living in 140 units, plus people that may want to go to the Glover Farmhouse,

[Speaker 4] (2:13:33 - 2:13:42)
is there sufficient parking spaces reserved for them because if there isn't, there's no other place around there that they can park all other parking.

[Speaker 4] (2:13:42 - 2:13:52)
parking options of private property. Third question that has come up is the possib we is the possibility of um uh

[Speaker 4] (2:13:54 - 2:14:20)
d drainage issues storm drainage issues that might arise as a result of the construction particularly of the undercounted garage we are downstream from the site of sight in the marble head and swamp Scott and we're concerned that any change in the overall water flow might damage the pond itself and of course the residences that surround it

[Speaker 4] (2:14:21 - 2:14:30)
And my question, which may maybe not be answered right now, is if we go ahead and dig into a large underground garage,

[Speaker 4] (2:14:30 - 2:14:32)
which may affect the water table,

[Speaker 4] (2:14:33 - 2:14:34)
which may involve blasting of ledge,

[Speaker 4] (2:14:34 - 2:14:36)
things of that nature,

[Speaker 4] (2:14:36 - 2:14:39)
could that create a problem for those of us that live downstream?

[Speaker 4] (2:14:42 - 2:14:44)
Those are my three questions.

[Speaker 3] (2:14:44 - 2:14:44)
Thank you.

[Speaker 4] (2:14:44 - 2:14:46)
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak.

[Speaker 3] (2:14:46 - 2:14:47)
Yeah, of course.

[Speaker 3] (2:14:54 - 2:14:56)
Can you introduce yourself? Just state your name and address.

[Speaker 4] (2:14:57 - 2:15:00)
It's right on the paper that I sent you. It was published 9-11.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:01 - 2:15:04)
My name is Joseph Doyle, Wall Street in Marblehead.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:05 - 2:15:07)
Can you read the title of that paper that you ignored,

[Speaker 4] (2:15:07 - 2:15:09)
that you treated like with a hot tomato?

[Speaker 3] (2:15:09 - 2:15:10)
The John Glover story.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:10 - 2:15:11)
That's right.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:11 - 2:15:14)
Now this is a wall put in a cockpit before the horse.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:14 - 2:15:16)
I didn't get involved in this until...

[Speaker 4] (2:15:18 - 2:15:19)
the second I was asked to come in.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:19 - 2:15:23)
I'm an investigative journalist. I've been doing it for about 40 years.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:23 - 2:15:25)
And this whole thing looks ridiculous.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:25 - 2:15:27)
$600,000 I can't get an handle on.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:27 - 2:15:33)
Where is it in escrow? Who's got what? What's going on? And I found out this guy that owns the property's been getting fined for years,

[Speaker 4] (2:15:34 - 2:15:35)
and everyone's talking about butting it up.

[Speaker 4] (2:15:35 - 2:15:44)
Well, why don't you get on one of these lawyers and lawyers from the town to go to send them just to court and get a compel motion and get them to do it. And if he doesn't do it within five days...

[Speaker 5] (2:15:44 - 2:15:45)
you cuff him I out.

[Speaker 3] (2:15:45 - 2:15:47)
watch you to calm down a little bit,

[Speaker 5] (2:15:47 - 2:15:47)
Listen,

[Speaker 3] (2:15:47 - 2:15:48)
okay?

[Speaker 5] (2:15:48 - 2:15:49)
you read that.

[Speaker 5] (2:15:50 - 2:15:50)
This country

[Speaker 3] (2:15:50 - 2:15:50)
You got

[Speaker 5] (2:15:50 - 2:15:51)
doesn't exist without this

[Speaker 3] (2:15:51 - 2:15:53)
this guy. is a planning

[Speaker 5] (2:15:53 - 2:15:53)
In fact,

[Speaker 3] (2:15:53 - 2:15:53)
board hearing,

[Speaker 5] (2:15:53 - 2:15:53)
you're walking

[Speaker 3] (2:15:53 - 2:15:54)
and you got

[Speaker 5] (2:15:54 - 2:15:55)
over his

[Speaker 3] (2:15:55 - 2:15:55)
to relax.

[Speaker 5] (2:15:55 - 2:15:55)
grave.

[Speaker 5] (2:15:56 - 2:15:58)
You're walking over his grave.

[Speaker 5] (2:15:59 - 2:16:01)
This guy let it all hang out and lost his wife.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:01 - 2:16:03)
You're talking about him like he didn't even exist.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:04 - 2:16:07)
You're the only one to put his name up there when I asked you to put it up.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:08 - 2:16:09)
What did it take so long?

[Speaker 5] (2:16:10 - 2:16:12)
You're walking on his grave.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:15 - 2:16:21)
This should be done as an educational situation bringing the high schools of Swampskate, Marblehead and Salem and the University.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:22 - 2:16:28)
You're not building them at Monticello and you're not building them at Washington's place.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:28 - 2:16:30)
So you're not building them here.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:30 - 2:16:33)
You button it up.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:33 - 2:16:36)
And it's a whole different thing with an artistic situation.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:36 - 2:16:37)
I'm walking down the halls here,

[Speaker 5] (2:16:37 - 2:16:39)
I'm seeing tremendous art from the kids.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:40 - 2:16:42)
I'm sure a lot of them are really hot with computers.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:43 - 2:16:44)
This thing could be financed nationally.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:45 - 2:16:46)
You can make this guy a hero.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:46 - 2:16:47)
Not only that,

[Speaker 5] (2:16:47 - 2:16:55)
I couldn't really do the situation that happened in Salem,

[Speaker 5] (2:16:56 - 2:16:57)
the retreat there.

[Speaker 5] (2:16:58 - 2:17:00)
That's when the Revolutionary War started.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:00 - 2:17:04)
It didn't start in Lexington and Concord. It started in Salem.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:07 - 2:17:09)
And so did the U.S. Navy start here.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:10 - 2:17:13)
And I'm incensed that this thing has got this far.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:13 - 2:17:14)
Look, it's still,

[Speaker 5] (2:17:14 - 2:17:19)
look at the gravity on the paper that's in front of you, and you're not even paying attention to me.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:20 - 2:17:23)
You're not even paying attention, so this is going to go left,

[Speaker 5] (2:17:23 - 2:17:24)
it's going to go right,

[Speaker 5] (2:17:24 - 2:17:26)
and you're going to dig his grave up.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:28 - 2:17:29)
Ja.

[Speaker 5] (2:17:29 - 2:17:33)
The paycheck you're drawing, you can thank him for drawing it for you.

[Speaker 3] (2:17:33 - 2:17:34)
Do you want to go look? Okay.

[Speaker 3] (2:17:36 - 2:17:37)
Is that

[Speaker 3] (2:17:37 - 2:17:39)
Thank you. Who's next?

[Speaker 3] (2:17:42 - 2:17:43)
Angel, I think we're I think we're good.

[Speaker 3] (2:17:49 - 2:17:50)
So I'm uh

[Speaker 1] (2:17:51 - 2:18:11)
Ralph James, eighty one Puritan Lane in Swampscott. I'm the president of of Tedesco. I just want to build on one thing that that Chris said. Um I have an obligation to the eight hundred plus members of Tedesco um to inform them what's going on with this project and to get their input.

[Speaker 1] (2:18:11 - 2:18:14)
I can't get from my car to the first tee without

[Speaker 6] (2:18:15 - 2:18:40)
members questioning me what's happening over over there and I can't answer them fully and completely like I'm responsible to do because the plan isn't complete and so I just in my role I need to have all the questions put on the table about environmental about drainage about roof lines about all that stuff

[Speaker 6] (2:18:41 - 2:18:54)
So that I can get a comprehensive reaction from our membership and bring it back to you because I think I think you deserve that and I think the because the club has

[Speaker 1] (2:18:57 - 2:19:06)
we have a real interest in really understanding what this project is going to mean to the club.

[Speaker 1] (2:19:06 - 2:19:07)
So thank you.

[Speaker 2] (2:19:08 - 2:19:08)
Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (2:19:18 - 2:19:40)
Thank you very much. Um my name's Joel Abramson and I'm a resident. My, my wife and I are residents at one Salem Street. Um I wanna thank you very much for um hosting this forum and this discussion and I'd like to thank the developers for their presentation, but we've been talking about this for this uh particular piece of land for years.

[Speaker 3] (2:19:41 - 2:19:46)
I'm also being fully transparent. I'm also a very proud San Esco member.

[Speaker 3] (2:19:47 - 2:19:50)
And I've got a lot of different questions and a lot of concerns,

[Speaker 3] (2:19:50 - 2:19:53)
some of which I'm going to state on behalf of a lot of people that I've spoken to.

[Speaker 3] (2:19:54 - 2:19:59)
Most of the people at One Salem Street are vehemently opposed to this.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:00 - 2:20:01)
development for a number of reasons.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:02 - 2:20:02)
One,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:02 - 2:20:08)
it may sound like 50 feet is only a little, but 50 feet is a five-story building,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:08 - 2:20:11)
probably the largest building in this area by far.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:11 - 2:20:19)
It will also block a significant part of Tedesco's property in terms of light.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:19 - 2:20:22)
The second tee and the second fairway,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:23 - 2:20:25)
with all due respect, may never see another piece of light.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:26 - 2:20:29)
And that's going to impact the quality of the course,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:29 - 2:20:29)
the resort,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:29 - 2:20:35)
and the value of the property and, by the way, the value of the properties around Tedesco.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:36 - 2:20:40)
My son lives in an 800-square-foot condo in Washington,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:40 - 2:20:48)
D.C., and whereby the gentlemen think that Swampscot and Marblehead residents are leaving.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:48 - 2:20:49)
With all due respect,

[Speaker 3] (2:20:49 - 2:20:50)
that's not true.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:51 - 2:20:53)
Swampscott and Marblehead residents are not leaving town.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:54 - 2:20:55)
They are spending money.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:55 - 2:20:57)
The rents are very high.

[Speaker 3] (2:20:57 - 2:21:03)
They're spending $25,000 to $4,000 a unit for two-bedroom units.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:04 - 2:21:07)
So whether we need affordable housing at this location,

[Speaker 3] (2:21:07 - 2:21:08)
that's another discussion.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:09 - 2:21:30)
But I'm concerned about the value of this development in terms of the amount of money that's going to be spent for 800 square foot units versus the comparable culture that is being developed in the Vinland Square Mall with their units which are going to be upscale.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:31 - 2:21:36)
parking's well thought out. The access and egress is well thought out.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:36 - 2:21:38)
And like Chris Drukas and Ralph mentioned,

[Speaker 3] (2:21:38 - 2:21:40)
we haven't seen a finished plan yet.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:41 - 2:21:42)
Line drawings are great.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:42 - 2:21:53)
I will also tell you that the chimneys with all due respect in most cases are probably going to be only for design because 800 square foot one bedroom units don't have fireplaces.

[Speaker 3] (2:21:55 - 2:22:11)
Um so where this may be as uh attorney mentioned a Vincent vintage historical look I think it might only be look and I'd like to know more about what the developer's background is in building high-end developments in an upscale community.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:12 - 2:22:15)
Also, a couple other things. The pool and the clubhouse.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:16 - 2:22:25)
I'd like to know, is the clubhouse going to be open to use for functions outside of the development itself?

[Speaker 3] (2:22:25 - 2:22:33)
In other words, could somebody that is a resident host a 150-person function?

[Speaker 3] (2:22:34 - 2:22:38)
And is the pool, who's going to manage the pool from a liability standpoint,

[Speaker 3] (2:22:38 - 2:22:39)
that concerns me.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:39 - 2:22:41)
Is it indoor or an outdoor pool?

[Speaker 3] (2:22:42 - 2:22:43)
And again, this reflects what Chris said.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:43 - 2:22:47)
We haven't seen finished plans of anything pertaining to this yet.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:47 - 2:22:49)
A couple pictures look great.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:49 - 2:22:51)
That doesn't solve the problem. And again,

[Speaker 3] (2:22:51 - 2:22:59)
we at One Salem Street and at Sadesco Pond take extreme care in the quality of the product and I'm sure you people know that.

[Speaker 3] (2:22:59 - 2:23:08)
And I don't see how this meets the standards that the town of Swampscott has set for community development in this area.

[Speaker 3] (2:23:09 - 2:23:12)
A couple, just a couple other quick things.

[Speaker 3] (2:23:13 - 2:23:15)
Underground parking is a great idea,

[Speaker 3] (2:23:15 - 2:23:17)
but it does not alleviate traffic.

[Speaker 3] (2:23:18 - 2:23:22)
The cars are the cars, regardless of whether they're up ground or underground,

[Speaker 3] (2:23:22 - 2:23:27)
you're still going to have 200 cars coming in and out of that property at least once a day.

[Speaker 3] (2:23:27 - 2:23:37)
That means 400 visits in that little small square face space which is already asking, well you've spoken to the policeman in the fire department,

[Speaker 3] (2:23:37 - 2:23:40)
that light at Tedesco is, I mean at

[Speaker 3] (2:23:40 - 2:23:51)
Bidens Square, where Tedesco Street in Salem is bumper to bumper 20, 30, 40 cars almost all the time. Add another 200 cars and you have additional problems.

[Speaker 3] (2:23:51 - 2:24:01)
You also have the residents across the street, which is going to be impacted by additional traffic. And that's a safety issue that I'm concerned about as an older adult.

[Speaker 4] (2:24:06 - 2:24:09)
We're coming up on five minutes, so I just want to be mindful of the other

[Speaker 3] (2:24:09 - 2:24:09)
No,

[Speaker 4] (2:24:09 - 2:24:09)
comments

[Speaker 3] (2:24:09 - 2:24:09)
I

[Speaker 4] (2:24:09 - 2:24:10)
in the room, but if you have anything else okay.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:10 - 2:24:26)
And the the only other quick question is is really the maintenance of the Glover property, uh the General Glover house. I mean it's nice to say, oh we're gonna take care of it. I wanna see a plan as to how you're gonna take care and make sure that the Glover house is maintained.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:27 - 2:24:28)
in the proper manner.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:28 - 2:24:31)
And I know the Historical Society has approved the development,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:31 - 2:24:32)
but again,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:32 - 2:24:33)
we here,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:33 - 2:24:34)
Chris Truchas,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:34 - 2:24:34)
us,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:34 - 2:24:35)
everybody here,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:35 - 2:24:36)
Ralph James,

[Speaker 3] (2:24:36 - 2:24:37)
we haven't seen a finished plan yet.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:38 - 2:24:51)
So we can't make a legitimate observation and any further discussions until we see what it's going to look, not what it's going to look like, what are the real facts that support everything that those pictures show.

[Speaker 4] (2:24:51 - 2:24:51)
Thank

[Speaker 3] (2:24:51 - 2:24:51)
Thank

[Speaker 4] (2:24:51 - 2:24:52)
you.

[Speaker 3] (2:24:52 - 2:24:52)
you very much.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:05 - 2:25:05)
Is it on?

[Speaker 4] (2:25:06 - 2:25:07)
Yep.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:07 - 2:25:11)
My name is Mark Klayman. I live at 50 Littles Point Road,

[Speaker 5] (2:25:11 - 2:25:11)
Swampscott.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:14 - 2:25:18)
I've been in the real estate development game for 50 years. I'm 75.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:19 - 2:25:23)
I've spent most of my professional

[Speaker 5] (2:25:25 - 2:25:34)
or development years in the town of Swampscott, have been involved in high profile projects in the town.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:35 - 2:25:36)
Swampscott Mall,

[Speaker 5] (2:25:36 - 2:25:37)
White Court.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:39 - 2:25:44)
And we've always tried to do the right thing and keep a high caliber.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:46 - 2:25:54)
product for the town. Keep it upscale. Vin and Square has always been the centrepiece is like as as goes Vin and Square so goes the town.

[Speaker 5] (2:25:57 - 2:26:10)
The last two this is I'm all over the place with this because you know I golf with Tony Athanas, he's my friend. Just have not been in agreement with how this has gone over the years. Um

[Speaker 5] (2:26:15 - 2:26:22)
To keep this project with a high caliber,

[Speaker 5] (2:26:22 - 2:26:27)
what am

[Speaker 5] (2:26:29 - 2:26:31)
I looking for? A high caliber,

[Speaker 5] (2:26:31 - 2:26:33)
right,

[Speaker 5] (2:26:33 - 2:26:36)
a high caliber quality finishes.

[Speaker 5] (2:26:39 - 2:27:03)
You know, the last two guys that walked on this, uh they're they're real pros and they walked because the numbers don't make. And I'd like to know more about who who this development team is because for forty years, all around New England I've interacted and I know I believe like all the major players that build apartments. And

[Speaker 5] (2:27:03 - 2:27:14)
These numbers don't work and the only intel I know in most these guys the only thing I've heard about them is they do small things in Tuckett, they did a small thing in Swampscott.

[Speaker 5] (2:27:15 - 2:27:29)
You know the attorney said we're part of a huge group that's done a hundred giant I don't know what he's talking about I'd like to hear more about that when we did Whitecourt, COVID hit and it took us five years the price doubled.

[Speaker 5] (2:27:29 - 2:27:47)
and we were just, you know, there to finish it no matter what, and it was not easy and, you know, stuff happens in real estate development. I'd like to I'd like to know, you know, proof of funds, I'd like to know that if they're really gonna put this kind of money and high calibre product on this site

[Speaker 5] (2:27:47 - 2:27:54)
that they have the money to do it because no one I know believes that these numbers work, they laugh.

[Speaker 5] (2:27:55 - 2:27:56)
You can't build for this.

[Speaker 5] (2:27:57 - 2:28:21)
etcetera. So I'm very leery of it for the sake of the town. Um we you know I told Tony we'll figure out a way to to keep, you know, keep this fifty feet away from the Ted Esco. I'm I also played Ted Esco. And these guys asked me to look into it. There's a plan that we could do that would keep that would keep the building fifty feet or a hundred feet.

[Speaker 5] (2:28:21 - 2:28:37)
from the second fairway, not twenty feet. Um and on and on and on. But um you know, I'm not here to try to blow this thing up, but I'm I just don't get it. I just don't get it.

[Speaker 4] (2:28:39 - 2:28:40)
Thank you.

[Speaker 4] (2:28:42 - 2:28:43)
Anyone else in the room?

[Speaker 6] (2:28:46 - 2:28:49)
Hi, um I'm Amy Maas.

[Speaker 6] (2:28:49 - 2:28:49)
My husband

[Speaker 1] (2:28:49 - 2:28:50)
my husband Ken has spoken.

[Speaker 1] (2:28:50 - 2:28:54)
I'm also a resident of Tedesco Pond Place.

[Speaker 1] (2:28:55 - 2:28:57)
I'm not sure if this is actually factual,

[Speaker 1] (2:28:57 - 2:29:04)
but I believe aside from the Tedesco Country Club, we are the closest of others to this project.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:04 - 2:29:10)
And my concern is we are a condo association of

[Speaker 1] (2:29:11 - 2:29:14)
probably a hundred percent senior citizens.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:15 - 2:29:19)
My concern is the construction process itself.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:20 - 2:29:22)
I've heard anywhere between two and three years.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:23 - 2:29:27)
Some people are, you know, seeing where we are. We're senior citizens.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:29 - 2:29:33)
The traffic problem of course has been stated a hundred times tonight.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:34 - 2:29:38)
We have difficulty getting out of our one driveway,

[Speaker 1] (2:29:38 - 2:29:39)
our one street.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:39 - 2:29:45)
We are the only people that need to access Tedesco Street or Vinnage Street,

[Speaker 1] (2:29:45 - 2:29:48)
except for the Tedesco parking lot.

[Speaker 1] (2:29:49 - 2:29:52)
I just haven't heard anything about,

[Speaker 1] (2:29:52 - 2:29:54)
I did hear the attorney,

[Speaker 1] (2:29:54 - 2:30:00)
I'm sorry I don't remember your name, say that they had spoken with a Butters.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:01 - 2:30:07)
I don't know one person from our area or other areas that have been spoken to,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:07 - 2:30:09)
so I really don't think that's been happening.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:11 - 2:30:16)
So I'm concerned about how long this construction project is, the blasting,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:16 - 2:30:19)
the effect on our pond,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:19 - 2:30:21)
we are on a sewage system, correct?

[Speaker 1] (2:30:22 - 2:30:26)
We are dependent on, we are low,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:26 - 2:30:30)
so the construction is extremely,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:30 - 2:30:34)
we're extremely concerned about that,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:34 - 2:30:34)
especially

[Speaker 1] (2:30:39 - 2:30:41)
Because of the length of time of the construction,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:41 - 2:30:42)
the noise of the construction,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:42 - 2:30:44)
the blasting you guys are talking about.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:45 - 2:30:53)
And I have to take objection with the integrity of the architecture in itself,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:53 - 2:30:57)
especially with building number one, which looks like bricks,

[Speaker 1] (2:30:57 - 2:30:58)
I'm not sure.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:58 - 2:31:03)
I don't know any other building in those areas that has red bricks except Stanley School.

[Speaker 1] (2:31:04 - 2:31:07)
I just don't believe this plant is complete,

[Speaker 1] (2:31:07 - 2:31:18)
and I don't believe that the people have taken the entire neighbourhood and town into full consideration. Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (2:31:19 - 2:31:21)
Thank you. Is there anyone else in the room?

[Speaker 2] (2:31:29 - 2:31:30)
Is there anyone online?

[Speaker 2] (2:31:33 - 2:31:35)
Just raise your hand if you want to speak and you're online.

[Speaker 2] (2:31:43 - 2:31:53)
Okay, it doesn't seem that way. Um okay, so I'll bring it back to the board. Uh I think, you know, there's a handful of things that I think I heard.

[Speaker 2] (2:31:55 - 2:31:59)
and I'm just gonna list them off for you all.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:01 - 2:32:06)
People wanna know how you're going to preserve the Glover House.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:06 - 2:32:13)
Is that gonna be in a covenant or something like that? Just let me run through the list and then I'll just feel free to respond.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:15 - 2:32:16)
There are I think some plans that are

[Speaker 2] (2:32:17 - 2:32:18)
missing,

[Speaker 3] (2:32:18 - 2:32:21)
Right. I can speak to the completeness of the application.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:21 - 2:32:21)
yeah.

[Speaker 3] (2:32:22 - 2:32:41)
So the development team, the applicant did submit quite a few plans today. Um I did talk to them on the phone and let them know that submitting this afternoon for meeting tonight is an adequate time for our staff to review um and for the board to review um so that

[Speaker 3] (2:32:41 - 2:32:45)
We would need additional time to review and provide comment on those plans.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:45 - 2:32:45)
Yep.

[Speaker 3] (2:32:45 - 2:32:49)
Um they could be used for illustration tonight, but um that

[Speaker 3] (2:32:49 - 2:32:52)
we hadn't received them in adequate time for our consideration tonight.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:52 - 2:33:14)
Okay. Thanks, Krista. Um and so I think as part of those plans, you know, people expect to see landscaping, drainage issues, you know, engineering how the building is gonna be supported, you know, whether or not there's gonna be blasting for the parking, all of those sorts of things where people would wanna know about the externalities that, you know, um would result from the construction. Um

[Speaker 2] (2:33:18 - 2:33:33)
And then the other thing that I heard was that people want to know, you know, a little bit more about the developers' background and financing. I think we spoke about that a lot tonight. I think that's what we were trying to get at at the beginning with the parking, where we think the parking is great to have it be underground.

[Speaker 2] (2:33:33 - 2:33:36)
But I think everyone wants to know, you know, is that feasible?

[Speaker 2] (2:33:36 - 2:33:41)
No one wants to have a project, you know, get the shovel in the ground and then.

[Speaker 2] (2:33:41 - 2:33:50)
sit around. So I think people are looking for a little bit more comfort um on um the developers, you know, background and ability.

[Speaker 4] (2:33:54 - 2:33:54)
I could.

[Speaker 2] (2:33:54 - 2:33:54)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (2:33:54 - 2:33:58)
Some of those requests are reasonable, but for examples

[Speaker 4] (2:33:59 - 2:34:14)
Right. Some of those questions are done in real time. The excavating of the excavating of the foundation and underground parking. There's a standard way that certain tests need to be done on the site.

[Speaker 4] (2:34:14 - 2:34:19)
It's important to understand we're the proponent of a proposal, we don't own the property.

[Speaker 4] (2:34:20 - 2:34:21)
At this point in time,

[Speaker 4] (2:34:21 - 2:34:26)
we're not allowed to do intrusive testing.

[Speaker 4] (2:34:26 - 2:34:36)
All that we can say to this board is that as a condition to your permit that that proper work be done,

[Speaker 4] (2:34:36 - 2:34:39)
it will be done once it's approved.

[Speaker 4] (2:34:41 - 2:34:48)
You can't ask for a certain testing to be done on property that we don't own or don't control.

[Speaker 4] (2:34:48 - 2:35:02)
We can ask as a matter of code and as a matter of law that the right work is done once we have ownership over the property and are allowed to do it, and we accept that as a condition. We have no issue with that.

[Speaker 4] (2:35:03 - 2:35:09)
But to ask for things that we simply as a matter of law cannot do,

[Speaker 4] (2:35:09 - 2:35:17)
I'd suggest is, well, I'd suggest it's improper and probably a violation of your own overlay district.

[Speaker 4] (2:35:18 - 2:35:43)
And so so again what you see what you see here tonight is is exactly the the issue that comes up and it's probably before you many times especially with some of these larger scale projects right some of the detail that's being asked for is detail that's provided at the end when uh conferencing with the building inspector and providing plans on determination as to what is code compliant what is not

[Speaker 4] (2:35:43 - 2:35:50)
not code compliant. What does the ground site allow for?

[Speaker 4] (2:35:50 - 2:35:54)
And some of that we just we simply can't answer today.

[Speaker 4] (2:35:54 - 2:35:58)
You asked the question about the general Gloverhouse. How is that going to be maintained?

[Speaker 4] (2:35:58 - 2:35:59)
We don't know yet.

[Speaker 4] (2:35:59 - 2:36:05)
All we know is that we are providing the general Gloverhouse a lease at minimal.

[Speaker 1] (2:36:06 - 2:36:17)
minimal nominal value to save it, and that we're going to be collaborative with the historical society in putting together a plan that they're happy with.

[Speaker 4] (2:36:17 - 2:36:21)
We're not going to foist the plan upon them.

[Speaker 4] (2:36:21 - 2:36:31)
We're not going to foist the plan upon this board simply because someone wants to know about it. That's a deliberative process that's going to take months, is my guess.

[Speaker 2] (2:36:31 - 2:36:42)
I guess to those to those two points, though, you know, typically under a purchase and sale agreement, you do have a due diligence period and you can go and do some sort of sampling. It would be unusual for a plan to come.

[Speaker 2] (2:36:42 - 2:37:00)
um before us without any idea of whether or not the plan is is feasible. Um so I I would expect there to be some uh idea of how the whether there's blasting or digging or something and that will all play into the drainage. And we do need to see a a landscaping and drainage plan. I mean that will

[Speaker 4] (2:37:00 - 2:37:00)
So

[Speaker 2] (2:37:00 - 2:37:00)
so that that will

[Speaker 4] (2:37:00 - 2:37:00)
drainage

[Speaker 2] (2:37:00 - 2:37:01)
be in

[Speaker 4] (2:37:01 - 2:37:01)
plan

[Speaker 2] (2:37:01 - 2:37:01)
at at

[Speaker 4] (2:37:01 - 2:37:04)
has been submitted as one of the we apologize one of the late submittals.

[Speaker 2] (2:37:04 - 2:37:04)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (2:37:04 - 2:37:10)
So that that has been provided and and there were conclusions made especially with regard to the

[Speaker 4] (2:37:10 - 2:37:20)
to the country club next door that the water situation is actually going to be better after the new drainage plan is implemented as opposed to what's currently there now. It's actually going to be an improvement

[Speaker 4] (2:37:21 - 2:37:30)
rather than a detriment. But I'll let you review those drainage plans that were submitted late to look at it. But the bottom line is our engineers are prepared to tell you that

[Speaker 4] (2:37:31 - 2:37:33)
The work that needs to be done will be done,

[Speaker 4] (2:37:33 - 2:37:38)
whether it's Plan A or Plan B, whether it's a this type of footing or that type of footing,

[Speaker 4] (2:37:38 - 2:37:42)
is going to depend on testing that we cannot do today.

[Speaker 4] (2:37:42 - 2:37:45)
We do not have that right under our P&S.

[Speaker 4] (2:37:45 - 2:37:49)
Most developers on these projects don't either.

[Speaker 2] (2:37:49 - 2:37:51)
I don't, I don't.

[Speaker 2] (2:37:52 - 2:38:12)
whether or not you can, you know, I don't have your purchase agreement so I don't know what you can and can't do under it, but uh you know we would wanna see as much information as you could get to us to let us know, you know, how that process is is going to go. We wanna know that what we're uh approving is uh something that's feasible. I think you can understand that. As term as far as the Glover House goes,

[Speaker 2] (2:38:14 - 2:38:17)
um we'd wanna know, you know, who are you planning to lease that.

[Speaker 2] (2:38:18 - 2:38:32)
Two and if it's a nominal fee then you know fine, but I think that's a fair you know a huge I think a large part of the support um that you hear around town for the project comes from the preservation of the Glover site and I think it's fair for folks to ask you know

[Speaker 4] (2:38:32 - 2:38:33)
Sure.

[Speaker 2] (2:38:33 - 2:38:35)
for some more details in terms of how that's gonna be papered.

[Speaker 5] (2:38:35 - 2:38:36)
Joe, can I jump in. So

[Speaker 2] (2:38:36 - 2:38:36)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (2:38:36 - 2:38:42)
if me if if the for instance the parking garage wasn't gonna work out for whatever reason,

[Speaker 2] (2:38:42 - 2:38:42)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (2:38:42 - 2:38:43)
they'd have to still come back

[Speaker 5] (2:38:43 - 2:38:44)
back and get that to change.

[Speaker 2] (2:38:45 - 2:38:45)
Yeah, right.

[Speaker 1] (2:38:45 - 2:38:46)
not like we can it's

[Speaker 2] (2:38:46 - 2:38:47)
That's true,

[Speaker 1] (2:38:47 - 2:38:47)
not like

[Speaker 2] (2:38:47 - 2:38:47)
but

[Speaker 1] (2:38:47 - 2:38:48)
that thing will change and we

[Speaker 2] (2:38:48 - 2:38:48)
I

[Speaker 1] (2:38:48 - 2:38:49)
have to guess deal

[Speaker 2] (2:38:49 - 2:38:51)
with my point is that like, you know, for like the drainage,

[Speaker 2] (2:38:51 - 2:38:51)
I think

[Speaker 1] (2:38:51 - 2:38:51)
no

[Speaker 2] (2:38:51 - 2:38:51)
that's my

[Speaker 1] (2:38:51 - 2:38:51)
i

[Speaker 2] (2:38:51 - 2:38:51)
point

[Speaker 1] (2:38:51 - 2:38:52)
think i mean

[Speaker 2] (2:38:52 - 2:38:52)
with

[Speaker 1] (2:38:52 - 2:38:52)
drainage

[Speaker 2] (2:38:52 - 2:38:52)
the drainage

[Speaker 1] (2:38:52 - 2:38:59)
is clearly here utility i mean i want to see the utilities that's all here so i know we have to check that off but and the other thing i you know maybe i'm not

[Speaker 1] (2:39:00 - 2:39:03)
And then maybe I'll, you know, people aren't going to like this perspective,

[Speaker 1] (2:39:03 - 2:39:10)
but I get the general Glover House. I live in the neighbourhood, I'm right down the street, but it's like what it is now is not good.

[Speaker 1] (2:39:11 - 2:39:22)
And asking a developer to single-handedly be responsible for it also I don't think is fair. So I do think there is the collaboration with the historical society to make it work for them to get some fundraising done.

[Speaker 1] (2:39:22 - 2:39:26)
It can't be the onus on the developer to single-handedly save this.

[Speaker 1] (2:39:26 - 2:39:43)
this structure that has been forgotten for decades and you know however long so I get the point of this and I think that there has to be a plan in place but I also think having that whole thing figured out before this development before a development moves forward is it's going to be a tough

[Speaker 1] (2:39:44 - 2:39:45)
So for any developer,

[Speaker 1] (2:39:45 - 2:39:47)
I don't want to doom the site to never

[Speaker 3] (2:39:47 - 2:39:47)
No.

[Speaker 1] (2:39:47 - 2:39:48)
be developed,

[Speaker 3] (2:39:48 - 2:39:48)
Well,

[Speaker 1] (2:39:48 - 2:39:48)
you know.

[Speaker 3] (2:39:48 - 2:39:53)
I agree with you, but I also think that we need to be aware that the town of Swampscot,

[Speaker 3] (2:39:53 - 2:40:00)
from what I've understood from meetings that we've had, that the Historical Commission and members have had with the town,

[Speaker 3] (2:40:00 - 2:40:01)
with the Select Board,

[Speaker 3] (2:40:01 - 2:40:02)
I should say.

[Speaker 3] (2:40:04 - 2:40:11)
My understanding is that the select board is not supportive of being the ones to run the property or

[Speaker 1] (2:40:11 - 2:40:12)
Right.

[Speaker 3] (2:40:12 - 2:40:15)
having, you know, having to back it in any particular way,

[Speaker 3] (2:40:15 - 2:40:19)
which is why the historical commission has been so diligent in fundraising efforts.

[Speaker 3] (2:40:21 - 2:40:27)
I don't know that a formal business plan of, you know, how it would run, who's responsible,

[Speaker 3] (2:40:27 - 2:40:28)
who's going to man it,

[Speaker 3] (2:40:28 - 2:40:29)
what kind of a...

[Speaker 3] (2:40:28 - 2:40:38)
uh you know what it's going to be exactly i don't know that that has been decided but that's something that i think that we need to see just to know i mean we can't just you know

[Speaker 1] (2:40:38 - 2:40:51)
I mean there's comments on like comments you know that I hear as well who are how are these developers taking this over and not saving the Glover well I also don't think that's a fair assessment and fair you know that you know I think there has to be a greater plan which I think

[Speaker 1] (2:40:52 - 2:41:15)
you know turning Dan Brochu's relating you know relaying here, but um I guess that's part of the discussion I think here is uh you know I've had lots of conversations with neighbours about this and what it is now is not good. So h how can we make it better as a collective scenario and not necessarily like why can't the developers do it? 'Cause I don't think they're gonna have the same vision that the Historical Commission has or the Select Board has.

[Speaker 3] (2:41:15 - 2:41:15)
Right.

[Speaker 2] (2:41:16 - 2:41:16)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (2:41:17 - 2:41:19)
And just to be clear,

[Speaker 3] (2:41:19 - 2:41:27)
test pits were conducted in 2022 under by Bowler Engineering for the Leggett plan.

[Speaker 3] (2:41:27 - 2:41:31)
You should have access to all those documents. I'm looking at it right now.

[Speaker 4] (2:41:31 - 2:41:31)
We do.

[Speaker 5] (2:41:31 - 2:41:34)
I'll just clarify in the drainage report,

[Speaker 5] (2:41:34 - 2:41:37)
the testing wasn't conducted by the previous engineer,

[Speaker 5] (2:41:37 - 2:41:40)
it was conducted by one of the property owners consultants,

[Speaker 5] (2:41:41 - 2:41:43)
so that was referenced in the drainage report.

[Speaker 5] (2:41:43 - 2:41:53)
report so um that might help there is the original submission did include a landscaping plan integrating a drainage plan and a utilities plan but i think it all kind of comes together with the drainage report

[Speaker 3] (2:41:53 - 2:42:08)
Yeah, and I think that will change somewhat because this only went so many feet into the earth and I think that when you're planning on excavating for the garage that's what's going to be really interesting is to know how does that.

[Speaker 3] (2:42:08 - 2:42:14)
does that change and what kind of an impact is it going to have and that's, you know, be of concern to all of us.

[Speaker 5] (2:42:14 - 2:42:27)
Yeah, the only other thing that might help is, you know, the garage kind of moves into that structural world and I think the supportive excavation, SOE, which was kind of hinted at, right,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:27 - 2:42:29)
that moves into that geotechnical world,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:29 - 2:42:35)
which is really part of that construction process, you know, at a planning board level. I mean, we work on

[Speaker 5] (2:42:35 - 2:42:44)
On urban projects, you know, where you have very deep underground garages that are abutting buildings, you know, in that construction phase, that's when your geotechnical engineer is involved,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:44 - 2:42:46)
that's when your structural engineer is involved,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:46 - 2:42:52)
and that's when they do the design of the support of excavation. That's when they, a lot of times, will do deeper,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:52 - 2:42:54)
you know, kind of I think to the chair's point,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:54 - 2:42:56)
right, during the due diligence process,

[Speaker 5] (2:42:56 - 2:43:01)
we want to do certain findings. In this case, we had test bits that went down, I think in some cases, eight.

[Speaker 5] (2:43:01 - 2:43:11)
is A plus B. You know, I don't know the legality of what we can or can't do, but it's good to know we have that information. So we kind of have a really good idea of what's there to a certain

[Speaker 1] (2:43:11 - 2:43:11)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (2:43:11 - 2:43:20)
point. And then as part of that crushed construction process, that's when your structural engineer and your geotech kind of come in and really help, you know, finalise that design.

[Speaker 2] (2:43:22 - 2:43:27)
One thing I want to speak to just in in the conversations tonight,

[Speaker 2] (2:43:27 - 2:43:47)
what has been submitted in a timely fashion is actually what is driving our ability to move this forward and right now I know the conversation was you want to get in the ground before it's frozen but we have not received the data that we need to be doing our jobs and representing the town and the citizens of the town.

[Speaker 2] (2:43:47 - 2:43:58)
So what we really need to be reviewing is what additional documents we need so this can be continued to another meeting and we can do the analysis of it and move this forward.

[Speaker 2] (2:43:58 - 2:44:08)
Because right now it would be malpractice for us to actually approve drawings that haven't been studied and information that hasn't been submitted.

[Speaker 2] (2:44:08 - 2:44:14)
So, you know, at this point in time I think it's awesome to get the amount of feedback that we've gotten and have the dialogue.

[Speaker 2] (2:44:14 - 2:44:20)
dialogue. But I do want to make it very, very clear that this board is not holding up a project.

[Speaker 2] (2:44:21 - 2:44:35)
This board has not been given what is required by a planning board to make a decision to move it forward. And so I just I just want to speak to this. This is not you know we are not holding a project up. We don't have enough information.

[Speaker 2] (2:44:36 - 2:44:41)
So, and I know that this board is flexible on on looking at if there need to be special meetings etcetera.

[Speaker 2] (2:44:42 - 2:44:54)
Um so I just want you to know that this is not us not supporting this project, but w our our diligence and our um responsibility is to the town of Swampscott and to our neighbouring towns.

[Speaker 5] (2:44:56 - 2:44:57)
Yeah, thanks Jer.

[Speaker 1] (2:44:57 - 2:44:58)
Yep. Well said.

[Speaker 2] (2:45:04 - 2:45:04)
Yep.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:04 - 2:45:07)
Just a couple of conclusions.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:08 - 2:45:11)
The construction plans are very different from the plans that are submitted tonight.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:12 - 2:45:16)
Construction plans will require the approval of the building commissioner.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:17 - 2:45:21)
Nothing's going to be built unless it can be built and built structurally sound.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:21 - 2:45:23)
That stands to reason.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:23 - 2:45:32)
There are limitations on what we can do. It was very fortunate that Lake McCall had a different relationship and allowed the developer to come in and do certain test boards.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:33 - 2:45:37)
If it turns out that this project is not financially satisfactory,

[Speaker 6] (2:45:37 - 2:45:37)
Three.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:38 - 2:45:45)
That's a problem that every developer, and two of the prior developers, for whatever reason I can't speak to it, have decided to walk away.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:46 - 2:45:50)
We're prepared to make, and we've made an enormous investment so far.

[Speaker 6] (2:45:50 - 2:45:57)
I think what's also very important is this, is that a lot of the abutters are the ones that are on the Salem side,

[Speaker 6] (2:45:57 - 2:46:01)
and we put all the traffic on the Salem Street side,

[Speaker 6] (2:46:01 - 2:46:02)
which is where I live.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:02 - 2:46:08)
But I was advised that from the perspective of the transportation experts,

[Speaker 6] (2:46:08 - 2:46:10)
that was the best approach.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:11 - 2:46:15)
The other thing that's so obvious, but it bears discussion.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:17 - 2:46:32)
Is that nothing for the last 30 years has been there and therefore there's been no traffic for the last 30 years and I don't think anyone realistically expects the owner of that property to even though they have for the last 30 years to pay taxes on it and not be able to utilize it but at some point.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:33 - 2:46:35)
At some point there will be a utilization.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:36 - 2:46:46)
It was this planning board in its wisdom designed this zoning district for the very use, with the very numbers that we're giving you.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:47 - 2:46:51)
We've done it in what we thought was a preferable way,

[Speaker 6] (2:46:51 - 2:46:52)
more expensive way.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:53 - 2:46:58)
This is the first time I've ever been tasked with responsibility of proving to anybody.

[Speaker 6] (2:46:58 - 2:47:01)
that every investment is going to pay off.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:02 - 2:47:05)
That's well beyond my pay grade, but those that are the investors,

[Speaker 6] (2:47:05 - 2:47:10)
those that are willing to put their money in this project, which they are, feel otherwise.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:11 - 2:47:16)
So for a developer to say, I don't think they can do it because anecdotally it can't be done,

[Speaker 6] (2:47:17 - 2:47:19)
that's not their decision to make. And I don't honestly

[Speaker 2] (2:47:19 - 2:47:21)
I don't think it's our decision to make

[Speaker 6] (2:47:21 - 2:47:21)
either.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:21 - 2:47:21)
either.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:22 - 2:47:22)
Yeah,

[Speaker 6] (2:47:22 - 2:47:22)
And

[Speaker 2] (2:47:22 - 2:47:23)
I don't think it's not up to us.

[Speaker 7] (2:47:23 - 2:47:24)
the role of the

[Speaker 2] (2:47:23 - 2:47:24)
of the planning

[Speaker 6] (2:47:24 - 2:47:24)
No,

[Speaker 2] (2:47:24 - 2:47:24)
board, if

[Speaker 6] (2:47:24 - 2:47:25)
and I wanted

[Speaker 2] (2:47:25 - 2:47:25)
it is to abide

[Speaker 6] (2:47:25 - 2:47:26)
that it's

[Speaker 2] (2:47:26 - 2:47:27)
ability financially,

[Speaker 6] (2:47:27 - 2:47:27)
well

[Speaker 2] (2:47:27 - 2:47:30)
it's not our expertise and it's certainly not yours.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:30 - 2:47:35)
beyond the jurisdictional authority under the multifamily overlay district.

[Speaker 3] (2:47:36 - 2:47:37)
You wouldn't want to do it.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:37 - 2:47:38)
No, I, I, I,

[Speaker 2] (2:47:38 - 2:47:38)
Yeah,

[Speaker 6] (2:47:38 - 2:47:39)
yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:39 - 2:47:40)
that analysis

[Speaker 3] (2:47:40 - 2:47:40)
Right.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:40 - 2:47:41)
I'm not

[Speaker 3] (2:47:41 - 2:47:41)
Right.

[Speaker 2] (2:47:41 - 2:47:41)
doing.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:41 - 2:47:43)
But, but I can tell you this.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:43 - 2:47:48)
Some of the plans, because we've been trying to do this as expeditiously as possible,

[Speaker 6] (2:47:48 - 2:47:51)
came in as late as today.

[Speaker 6] (2:47:52 - 2:48:02)
And they came in because we were fortunate enough that this planning board are two of the members were willing to sit with us, at least preliminarily. We then had a meeting with the.

[Speaker 6] (2:48:02 - 2:48:08)
Department heads preliminarily so when we got to this point we would be able to check off as many boxes as we could.

[Speaker 6] (2:48:10 - 2:48:28)
It takes a long time of a project of this enormity but the other aspect of this that was brought to our attention is how important it is to get this project started because if it then goes into the spring if finances were tight before they're going to be even tighter in the future. And

[Speaker 6] (2:48:29 - 2:48:32)
The owner wants us to take possession,

[Speaker 6] (2:48:32 - 2:48:38)
and that's great, except at that point we're now covering the cost of the acquisition.

[Speaker 1] (2:48:40 - 2:48:41)
That's not your issue either.

[Speaker 1] (2:48:41 - 2:48:44)
But we do appreciate your willingness.

[Speaker 1] (2:48:45 - 2:48:48)
Once we get all of our ducks in a row,

[Speaker 1] (2:48:48 - 2:48:50)
and I trust that...

[Speaker 1] (2:48:50 - 2:48:52)
Not only what you said,

[Speaker 1] (2:48:52 - 2:48:55)
but what our senior town planner has already said and what we've submitted,

[Speaker 1] (2:48:55 - 2:49:04)
and we think we've submitted most of it, you'll have an opportunity to look at as quickly as you can and then just get back to us.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:04 - 2:49:06)
So if it requires a special meeting,

[Speaker 1] (2:49:06 - 2:49:10)
and believe me, this is something of enormous importance,

[Speaker 1] (2:49:10 - 2:49:14)
not only to the abutters, but to the town, to all of us,

[Speaker 1] (2:49:14 - 2:49:16)
because at the end of the day...

[Speaker 1] (2:49:17 - 2:49:28)
For the last 30 years there's been a blight on that property and granted that those at Tedesco would I gather would rather see the blight than the potential of a structure going up there.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:29 - 2:49:32)
I don't know any abutter who's looking forward to change.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:33 - 2:49:38)
It's just the nature of the process but in some cases change has value.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:38 - 2:49:42)
And if we can accept the premise that we're providing housing,

[Speaker 1] (2:49:42 - 2:49:47)
we're doing it under the auspices of your bylaw that was created by your planning board,

[Speaker 1] (2:49:47 - 2:49:49)
which was then approved by town meeting.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:49 - 2:49:53)
And if we check the boxes, this is an as of right project.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:53 - 2:49:55)
This is undistinguishable.

[Speaker 2] (2:49:55 - 2:49:59)
Attorney Attorney Schutzer I guess you know in the interest of you know moving

[Speaker 1] (2:49:59 - 2:49:59)
You're

[Speaker 2] (2:49:59 - 2:49:59)
things

[Speaker 1] (2:49:59 - 2:49:59)
right.

[Speaker 2] (2:49:59 - 2:49:59)
forward.

[Speaker 1] (2:49:59 - 2:50:01)
I have a tendency to.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:01 - 2:50:05)
No no I guess my question is do you feel like you have enough Information from us tonight

[Speaker 2] (2:50:05 - 2:50:07)
Right. You know, there's there's things that we don't have. Right.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:07 - 2:50:08)
They were submitted today,

[Speaker 2] (2:50:08 - 2:50:11)
so we don't know uh what we don't know.

[Speaker 1] (2:50:11 - 2:50:14)
If you don't, if you don't feel that, if you don't feel that you don't have what you need,

[Speaker 2] (2:50:14 - 2:50:15)
Well, we don't

[Speaker 3] (2:50:15 - 2:50:15)
No, we don't.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:15 - 2:50:15)
we don't.

[Speaker 3] (2:50:15 - 2:50:15)
we don't.

[Speaker 4] (2:50:15 - 2:50:15)
So

[Speaker 2] (2:50:15 - 2:50:26)
But my question is, do you feel like you have a do you do you feel like the plans that were submitted today address the things that we've gone over tonight or do you have other questions about the sorts of things that we're looking for? I guess that's my question.

[Speaker 4] (2:50:26 - 2:50:29)
We will look through it. It seems like most of it's been addressed,

[Speaker 4] (2:50:29 - 2:50:30)
but I will be frank.

[Speaker 4] (2:50:32 - 2:50:36)
The questions that have been posed tonight are construction questions,

[Speaker 4] (2:50:36 - 2:50:37)
and so

[Speaker 2] (2:50:37 - 2:50:37)
So

[Speaker 4] (2:50:37 - 2:50:37)
I want

[Speaker 2] (2:50:37 - 2:50:37)
I

[Speaker 4] (2:50:37 - 2:50:37)
to be clear

[Speaker 2] (2:50:37 - 2:50:37)
hear

[Speaker 4] (2:50:37 - 2:50:37)
about

[Speaker 2] (2:50:37 - 2:50:38)
you

[Speaker 4] (2:50:38 - 2:50:38)
that.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:38 - 2:50:38)
there.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:39 - 2:50:43)
I guess, you know, I think some of these questions are not questions for things that will go into the site.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:44 - 2:50:45)
They're not what we're approving, right?

[Speaker 2] (2:50:46 - 2:50:49)
Some of the things that have been asked are just things to make the community feel comfortable.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:49 - 2:50:52)
I'm not asking for, you know, your whole finance analysis,

[Speaker 2] (2:50:53 - 2:50:56)
but, you know, sometimes developers will come before us and they'll give us a little bio.

[Speaker 2] (2:50:57 - 2:50:59)
of projects that they've worked on. That's not required,

[Speaker 2] (2:50:59 - 2:51:09)
but it it helps us feel a little more comfortable, I think it helps people in the room feel a little bit more comfortable. It's not a requirement, but I think it's I think it's just like some goodwill.

[Speaker 2] (2:51:10 - 2:51:12)
Here just just just one second Larry.

[Speaker 2] (2:51:12 - 2:51:12)
Thanks.

[Speaker 4] (2:51:13 - 2:51:13)
All right.

[Speaker 2] (2:51:13 - 2:51:16)
And so you know that's why I'm asking those questions,

[Speaker 2] (2:51:16 - 2:51:19)
but when it comes to things like You know

[Speaker 2] (2:51:20 - 2:51:24)
What we've talked to tonight whether it's you know the traffic study

[Speaker 2] (2:51:25 - 2:51:31)
Ingress and egress you know making sure the plans are up to date I just want to make sure that you feel like you've gotten what you need from us

[Speaker 4] (2:51:31 - 2:51:32)
I think you do.

[Speaker 2] (2:51:32 - 2:51:32)
Yeah,

[Speaker 4] (2:51:32 - 2:51:32)
I think

[Speaker 2] (2:51:32 - 2:51:33)
okay you fine

[Speaker 4] (2:51:33 - 2:51:36)
update deals with the traffic issue.

[Speaker 4] (2:51:36 - 2:51:41)
I think in terms of the egress and ingress, they built the code, their construction issues,

[Speaker 4] (2:51:41 - 2:51:43)
they're fully compliant, it's modern day construction,

[Speaker 4] (2:51:44 - 2:51:49)
maybe the police department doesn't like it for their own subjective police reasons,

[Speaker 4] (2:51:49 - 2:51:54)
again that doesn't mean that from a planning perspective it's an input,

[Speaker 4] (2:51:54 - 2:51:54)
that doesn't mean

[Speaker 2] (2:51:54 - 2:51:55)
I

[Speaker 4] (2:51:55 - 2:51:55)
that,

[Speaker 2] (2:51:55 - 2:51:55)
just

[Speaker 4] (2:51:55 - 2:51:55)
sure

[Speaker 5] (2:51:55 - 2:51:55)
Well,

[Speaker 2] (2:51:55 - 2:51:57)
asked that you take those into consideration.

[Speaker 5] (2:51:57 - 2:51:57)
right.

[Speaker 4] (2:51:57 - 2:51:59)
we do,

[Speaker 4] (2:51:59 - 2:52:02)
but again it's that fine line of

[Speaker 4] (2:52:02 - 2:52:28)
of where do you then go from a planning perspective into finite construction issues and and look I'll be frank you've had two developers walk away already right if you have a third it begs the question is is the issue with the developers or is the issue with the process right because at the end of the day we're very happy to provide what we need to provide but it's also important to remember that there's currently

[Speaker 4] (2:52:28 - 2:52:32)
currently an outstanding plan set that's been approved,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:32 - 2:52:35)
it's currently still active,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:35 - 2:52:35)
and

[Speaker 6] (2:52:35 - 2:52:35)
Actually,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:35 - 2:52:36)
that is

[Speaker 6] (2:52:36 - 2:52:36)
it's not.

[Speaker 4] (2:52:36 - 2:52:37)
the original one where,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:37 - 2:52:42)
that we did not, and I assure you, the current plan,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:42 - 2:52:46)
the Leggett McCall plan that was approved in 2023,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:46 - 2:52:48)
given the current state of zoning line,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:48 - 2:52:49)
23,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:49 - 2:52:50)
January of 23,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:50 - 2:52:55)
that plan that was approved by this town is still viable and open.

[Speaker 4] (2:52:56 - 2:52:56)
and and

[Speaker 7] (2:52:56 - 2:52:57)
I don't

[Speaker 4] (2:52:57 - 2:52:57)
we

[Speaker 7] (2:52:57 - 2:52:57)
think,

[Speaker 4] (2:52:57 - 2:52:59)
don't want to follow it because it requires

[Speaker 2] (2:52:59 - 2:53:03)
I don't know that that's true, but but, you know, I feel like we're getting a little derailed.

[Speaker 4] (2:53:03 - 2:53:03)
Well,

[Speaker 2] (2:53:03 - 2:53:03)
I feel

[Speaker 4] (2:53:03 - 2:53:03)
no,

[Speaker 2] (2:53:03 - 2:53:03)
like

[Speaker 4] (2:53:03 - 2:53:03)
but

[Speaker 2] (2:53:03 - 2:53:04)
that Wait wait wait wait no no I'm mm. no wait

[Speaker 7] (2:53:04 - 2:53:05)
I'm just,

[Speaker 2] (2:53:05 - 2:53:06)
no wait I feel like I

[Speaker 7] (2:53:06 - 2:53:07)
taking this kind of a back, isn't

[Speaker 2] (2:53:07 - 2:53:08)
it's isn't yeah

[Speaker 7] (2:53:08 - 2:53:08)
not helpful

[Speaker 2] (2:53:08 - 2:53:08)
this

[Speaker 7] (2:53:08 - 2:53:08)
to

[Speaker 2] (2:53:08 - 2:53:08)
has been like

[Speaker 7] (2:53:08 - 2:53:09)
us either.

[Speaker 2] (2:53:09 - 2:53:23)
a pretty I feel like this has been a pretty positive uh hearing so far and um I'm not going to get into a debate over the process or the developers or the financial stuff I'm asking you these questions to help you out because I want you know I I like I said I

[Speaker 2] (2:53:23 - 2:53:25)
I listed up a bunch of things that I like about the project.

[Speaker 2] (2:53:25 - 2:53:32)
I'm asking you these questions because I wanna make sure that you have what you need to to be responsive. So I'm not trying to get into

[Speaker 4] (2:53:32 - 2:53:32)
a I'm

[Speaker 2] (2:53:32 - 2:53:32)
debate,

[Speaker 4] (2:53:32 - 2:53:32)
not sure if

[Speaker 2] (2:53:32 - 2:53:32)
but if you have

[Speaker 4] (2:53:32 - 2:53:34)
the roof line, w we'll look through the plans.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:34 - 2:53:41)
at and at this point in time, like we have not seen what was submitted this afternoon. It was not pre looked over by staff

[Speaker 8] (2:53:41 - 2:53:41)
Right.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:41 - 2:53:42)
and we are

[Speaker 2] (2:53:42 - 2:53:42)
Right,

[Speaker 7] (2:53:42 - 2:53:42)
working,

[Speaker 2] (2:53:42 - 2:53:42)
you submitted late.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:42 - 2:53:45)
we're flying blind. It was submitted late and we're flying blind.

[Speaker 2] (2:53:45 - 2:53:45)
Sure.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:45 - 2:53:48)
So I'm I'm sorry that this is frustrating to you.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:49 - 2:53:54)
My, our responsibility, we you're you're basically insinuating that

[Speaker 4] (2:53:54 - 2:53:54)
No, no.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:54 - 2:53:56)
it has been our fault that p that developers have

[Speaker 1] (2:53:56 - 2:53:56)
walked No.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:56 - 2:53:57)
away.

[Speaker 2] (2:53:57 - 2:53:57)
Right.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:57 - 2:53:57)
You are,

[Speaker 1] (2:53:57 - 2:53:57)
No.

[Speaker 7] (2:53:58 - 2:54:14)
but here's the situation. We have a responsibility to our town to follow process and you have a responsibility when submitting information that it's submitted in a timely fashion and that you were not pressuring us to make decisions without the required information.

[Speaker 7] (2:54:16 - 2:54:20)
So at this point in time we're excited about this project and we're being attacked.

[Speaker 7] (2:54:20 - 2:54:36)
So I really think that you should be thoughtful about the work that we're gonna put in the next couple weeks to make sure we can possibly schedule a special meeting so ground can be broken at the point that we have the information that we can make intelligent, informed and responsible decisions.

[Speaker 1] (2:54:36 - 2:54:39)
Thank you. Uh Larry, can can Mr. Digiorgio,

[Speaker 2] (2:54:39 - 2:54:41)
Are you a are you a are you a member of the

[Speaker 2] (2:54:41 - 2:54:41)
member of the project?

[Speaker 9] (2:54:41 - 2:54:42)
Yeah, I am

[Speaker 4] (2:54:42 - 2:54:42)
Yeah.

[Speaker 9] (2:54:42 - 2:54:42)
the man,

[Speaker 1] (2:54:42 - 2:54:42)
He's the manager.

[Speaker 9] (2:54:42 - 2:54:43)
Attorney

[Speaker 2] (2:54:43 - 2:54:43)
Oh, okay.

[Speaker 9] (2:54:43 - 2:54:44)
DJ Marino.

[Speaker 2] (2:54:44 - 2:54:45)
Okay.

[Speaker 9] (2:54:45 - 2:54:55)
Thank you all. Um, harkens back to the days when I was chairman of the Marblehead School Committee and we put the marble at high school right on the busy intersection of Humphrey and Lafayette

[Speaker 2] (2:54:55 - 2:54:56)
Sorry, could you just state your address?

[Speaker 9] (2:54:56 - 2:54:56)
Street.

[Speaker 2] (2:54:56 - 2:54:56)
Sorry, I did

[Speaker 9] (2:54:56 - 2:55:01)
Sure, uh 14 Ida Road, Marblehead, Mass. Thank you. Um

[Speaker 9] (2:55:02 - 2:55:08)
I understand the traffic questions very well. We're addressing them, and we will continue to address them. All the questions are fair,

[Speaker 9] (2:55:08 - 2:55:13)
except for the fact that I have provided Attorney Drukis more than he'd let you know.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:13 - 2:55:16)
He has the entire bio on De Niro construction.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:16 - 2:55:17)
Okay,

[Speaker 9] (2:55:17 - 2:55:21)
I sent it to him and I sent it to the General Manager of Tedesco. We had a very nice meeting.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:21 - 2:55:23)
Chris and I are friends,

[Speaker 9] (2:55:23 - 2:55:27)
but I'm letting you know we have been responsive to that. It has been quick.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:27 - 2:55:34)
They have been patient. We've tried our best to get information. They're right about the timing. I'm not disputing that.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:34 - 2:55:36)
Our guys are working round the clock.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:36 - 2:55:43)
It's just the nature of what we're trying to do. In the time frame within which we are trying to do it, to your point, I totally understand.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:43 - 2:55:45)
So we're excited.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:46 - 2:55:53)
We feel like we've gone a long way in trying to address a lot of the concerns of the abutters of Tedesco, et cetera.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:53 - 2:55:56)
Nothing's perfect. Everything's a process.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:56 - 2:55:59)
We appreciate the process. I just want you to know that. And

[Speaker 10] (2:55:59 - 2:55:59)
Okay.

[Speaker 9] (2:55:59 - 2:56:01)
we'll be back. And we'll be back with more information.

[Speaker 9] (2:56:01 - 2:56:04)
I hope everything you have today is final. I know

[Speaker 10] (2:56:04 - 2:56:05)
Yeah.

[Speaker 9] (2:56:05 - 2:56:16)
it was as late as 4:30 today the last set of plans came in. So I totally knew this was going to happen. And it's appropriate for you to say it. But we'll continue to work hard and work as quickly as we can,

[Speaker 10] (2:56:16 - 2:56:17)
Okay.

[Speaker 9] (2:56:17 - 2:56:18)
but not get you half information.

[Speaker 11] (2:56:18 - 2:56:19)
Larry, to that point

[Speaker 4] (2:56:19 - 2:56:19)
Good night.

[Speaker 11] (2:56:19 - 2:56:20)
too, I'd

[Speaker 13] (2:56:19 - 2:56:20)
So I'd just like

[Speaker 14] (2:56:20 - 2:56:20)
That would

[Speaker 13] (2:56:20 - 2:56:20)
to say

[Speaker 14] (2:56:20 - 2:56:20)
be great.

[Speaker 13] (2:56:20 - 2:56:26)
a quick word about the developer and who's behind, you know, behind the projects since that's come into question.

[Speaker 1] (2:56:26 - 2:56:27)
Let's not.

[Speaker 7] (2:56:27 - 2:56:27)
Sure.

[Speaker 13] (2:56:27 - 2:56:42)
You know, developed over a million square feet of real estate, been in business for over forty years, general contracted across all major asset types, ownership, developed multiple eight-figure businesses outside of real estate.

[Speaker 13] (2:56:43 - 2:56:48)
based in New Hampshire, grew up in Danvers, played hockey against Swampscott in high school.

[Speaker 13] (2:56:49 - 2:56:56)
Tom Moulton and DeNiro Construction is you know, a major part of this project and

[Speaker 13] (2:56:57 - 2:56:59)
I just think that that needed to be said.

[Speaker 15] (2:57:00 - 2:57:00)
Thank you.

[Speaker 1] (2:57:01 - 2:57:09)
I just have one one actual question. How soon can you get us a list of what you think, after you had a chance to look at it, is is still

[Speaker 1] (2:57:10 - 2:57:17)
required, because I'd like to make sure that we we get you everything so you can say to us we have it.

[Speaker 2] (2:57:17 - 2:57:24)
I would I would suggest that you, you know, connect with uh town planning on that. Um you know we'll we'll hear this again at the

[Speaker 16] (2:57:24 - 2:57:24)
Yes.

[Speaker 2] (2:57:24 - 2:57:25)
next meeting. Um

[Speaker 1] (2:57:25 - 2:57:29)
No, I I just want to make sure that at the next meeting, you know, we're not confronted

[Speaker 16] (2:57:29 - 2:57:29)
Town

[Speaker 1] (2:57:29 - 2:57:29)
with

[Speaker 16] (2:57:29 - 2:57:30)
planning will tell you.

[Speaker 1] (2:57:30 - 2:57:30)
with something

[Speaker 2] (2:57:30 - 2:57:30)
Yeah,

[Speaker 1] (2:57:30 - 2:57:31)
that we we've

[Speaker 2] (2:57:31 - 2:57:31)
right.

[Speaker 1] (2:57:31 - 2:57:32)
neglected to provide.

[Speaker 2] (2:57:32 - 2:57:33)
Right, town planning will

[Speaker 16] (2:57:33 - 2:57:33)
Thank

[Speaker 17] (2:57:33 - 2:57:33)
I

[Speaker 2] (2:57:33 - 2:57:33)
tell you.

[Speaker 16] (2:57:33 - 2:57:33)
you.

[Speaker 17] (2:57:33 - 2:57:36)
Right. I I can speak to that, and I will say I have to route

[Speaker 17] (2:57:36 - 2:57:47)
route this to all the different departments again so that they can take a look and make sure that their comments have been addressed. So we will, you know, get going on that tomorrow morning, but, you know.

[Speaker 17] (2:57:48 - 2:57:53)
The departments are very busy, so we'll try and get their their review and comments back to you as soon as possible.

[Speaker 18] (2:57:54 - 2:58:05)
And I'm happy to go through, you know, personally go through all of these documents and and see if I can, you know, if I see anything that that I'm that stands out to me that I think is missing, I'd be happy to I'll

[Speaker 17] (2:58:05 - 2:58:06)
Yeah, I I will collect

[Speaker 18] (2:58:06 - 2:58:06)
go.

[Speaker 17] (2:58:06 - 2:58:11)
uh comments from the board and from all the departments and I can send you an email outlining

[Speaker 18] (2:58:11 - 2:58:11)
Do it

[Speaker 17] (2:58:11 - 2:58:11)
everything

[Speaker 18] (2:58:11 - 2:58:12)
right

[Speaker 17] (2:58:12 - 2:58:12)
else

[Speaker 18] (2:58:12 - 2:58:12)
away.

[Speaker 17] (2:58:12 - 2:58:13)
that's outstanding.

[Speaker 2] (2:58:13 - 2:58:13)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:13 - 2:58:15)
I just want to, on behalf of this development team,

[Speaker 1] (2:58:15 - 2:58:18)
I want to thank the planning board for the time and effort that

[Speaker 18] (2:58:18 - 2:58:18)
Sure.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:18 - 2:58:18)
they put in.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:19 - 2:58:23)
I know that there have been times where they've been willing to meet with us to sort of vet the project

[Speaker 18] (2:58:23 - 2:58:23)
Yep.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:23 - 2:58:23)
and

[Speaker 18] (2:58:23 - 2:58:24)
And we still are.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:24 - 2:58:25)
still are,

[Speaker 1] (2:58:25 - 2:58:31)
and we're appreciative. And ultimately at the end of the day, I'd like to believe, because at least I'm involved,

[Speaker 1] (2:58:31 - 2:58:34)
I live in the town of Swampscott, that I can say that somehow

[Speaker 2] (2:58:40 - 2:58:40)
Hey.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:40 - 2:58:41)
And I wanna thank you.

[Speaker 3] (2:58:42 - 2:58:43)
Great, thanks.

[Speaker 2] (2:58:43 - 2:58:43)
Thanks.

[Speaker 3] (2:58:43 - 2:58:46)
Do I have uh I p public's comments, all those Attorney Csukas? So

[Speaker 3] (2:58:47 - 2:58:49)
um do do I have a motion?

[Speaker 1] (2:58:50 - 2:58:50)
I if I might

[Speaker 3] (2:58:50 - 2:58:54)
Well, no I I public comments closed, so I think we're gonna we're gonna continue this this meeting.

[Speaker 1] (2:58:54 - 2:58:55)
Okay, continue your meeting.

[Speaker 4] (2:58:55 - 2:59:04)
to me you have to leave the public comment section open that's number one. But number two, just wanted to respond to something Larry said. I I said that he had provided me

[Speaker 4] (2:59:09 - 2:59:09)
Uh,

[Speaker 3] (2:59:09 - 2:59:12)
Okay, fine. Look, I'm not gonna get into a a back and forth on who

[Speaker 4] (2:59:12 - 2:59:12)
Well

[Speaker 3] (2:59:12 - 2:59:20)
hey guys Chris uh t Attorney Drukas, and I'm sorry sir, but I missed your name. Guys, we're not gonna get into like a back and forth at the end of the meeting on

[Speaker 4] (2:59:20 - 2:59:20)
it's

[Speaker 3] (2:59:20 - 2:59:20)
it.

[Speaker 4] (2:59:20 - 2:59:21)
uh it's friendly, trust

[Speaker 3] (2:59:21 - 2:59:21)
Yeah, I know, but

[Speaker 4] (2:59:21 - 2:59:21)
I

[Speaker 3] (2:59:21 - 2:59:21)
but

[Speaker 4] (2:59:21 - 2:59:22)
know,

[Speaker 3] (2:59:22 - 2:59:24)
still I uh we're trying to run the meeting

[Speaker 1] (2:59:24 - 2:59:24)
Fair

[Speaker 3] (2:59:24 - 2:59:24)
process

[Speaker 1] (2:59:24 - 2:59:24)
enough.

[Speaker 5] (2:59:24 - 2:59:24)
You have other

[Speaker 3] (2:59:24 - 2:59:25)
and I don't need people going back and

[Speaker 4] (2:59:25 - 2:59:26)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:26 - 2:59:29)
forth. Um okay. Is there a um

[Speaker 5] (2:59:29 - 2:59:33)
I I make a motion to continue this to the future once the application is

[Speaker 5] (2:59:33 - 2:59:34)
Completed.

[Speaker 6] (2:59:35 - 2:59:35)
S uh a second.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:36 - 2:59:36)
All those in favor?

[Speaker 5] (2:59:37 - 2:59:37)
Aye.

[Speaker 6] (2:59:37 - 2:59:37)
Aye.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:37 - 2:59:37)
Aye.

[Speaker 1] (2:59:37 - 2:59:39)
Thank you. If you

[Speaker 6] (2:59:39 - 2:59:39)
Thank

[Speaker 1] (2:59:39 - 2:59:39)
just

[Speaker 6] (2:59:39 - 2:59:39)
you.

[Speaker 1] (2:59:39 - 2:59:41)
sign a continuation of a contract.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:42 - 2:59:42)
Okay, thanks.

[Speaker 1] (2:59:43 - 2:59:44)
I think it's coming to action.

[Speaker 4] (2:59:47 - 2:59:47)
Thank you, Crystal.

[Speaker 1] (2:59:47 - 2:59:49)
I don't believe it. That's an incomplete.

[Speaker 1] (2:59:49 - 2:59:49)
No.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:50 - 2:59:50)
Oh, thanks.

[Speaker 6] (2:59:50 - 2:59:51)
Very good. Really good.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:52 - 2:59:52)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (2:59:52 - 2:59:52)
Absolutely.

[Speaker 3] (2:59:55 - 2:59:56)
That's a good girl.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:04 - 3:00:05)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:00:05 - 3:00:05)
All right.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:07 - 3:00:08)
Alright. Um I

[Speaker 4] (3:00:08 - 3:00:08)
Oh.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:08 - 3:00:10)
was actually, I have to

[Speaker 4] (3:00:10 - 3:00:10)
Mm.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:10 - 3:00:10)
actually go.

[Speaker 3] (3:00:11 - 3:00:11)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:11 - 3:00:13)
So if you see if I'm still alive,

[Speaker 3] (3:00:13 - 3:00:14)
Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I get it.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:14 - 3:00:15)
then I gotta go.

[Speaker 3] (3:00:15 - 3:00:17)
I think we're thank you for sticking around,

[Speaker 7] (3:00:17 - 3:00:17)
Of course.

[Speaker 3] (3:00:17 - 3:00:17)
Angela.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:17 - 3:00:20)
I'm sorry I can't, I have to go now.

[Speaker 4] (3:00:21 - 3:00:21)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:00:21 - 3:00:22)
You're off I think.

[Speaker 5] (3:00:24 - 3:00:26)
It gets little ambient noise, right?

[Speaker 7] (3:00:26 - 3:00:28)
I can hear you. Go ahead.

[Speaker 3] (3:00:30 - 3:00:32)
Hey folks, could you just could you just keep it down

[Speaker 8] (3:00:32 - 3:00:32)
Yeah,

[Speaker 3] (3:00:32 - 3:00:33)
because we we're we we've

[Speaker 8] (3:00:33 - 3:00:33)
just

[Speaker 3] (3:00:33 - 3:00:33)
got

[Speaker 8] (3:00:33 - 3:00:33)
have

[Speaker 3] (3:00:33 - 3:00:33)
enough more

[Speaker 8] (3:00:33 - 3:00:34)
a

[Speaker 3] (3:00:34 - 3:00:34)
of

[Speaker 8] (3:00:34 - 3:00:34)
the space

[Speaker 3] (3:00:34 - 3:00:34)
meeting to go

[Speaker 8] (3:00:34 - 3:00:34)
meeting.

[Speaker 8] (3:00:35 - 3:00:35)
It's okay.

[Speaker 8] (3:00:37 - 3:00:37)
Excellent.

[Speaker 8] (3:00:37 - 3:00:38)
Good.

[Speaker 8] (3:00:38 - 3:00:39)
Didn't have enough time, I think.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:39 - 3:00:39)
What the heck?

[Speaker 9] (3:00:40 - 3:00:40)
Or the

[Speaker 7] (3:00:40 - 3:00:40)
Oh.

[Speaker 9] (3:00:40 - 3:00:40)
Okay,

[Speaker 3] (3:00:40 - 3:00:41)
Sure.

[Speaker 9] (3:00:41 - 3:00:41)
perfect.

[Speaker 7] (3:00:41 - 3:00:42)
Okay.

[Speaker 9] (3:00:42 - 3:00:45)
Okay, so before you leave, I know you have to leave early,

[Speaker 8] (3:00:45 - 3:00:45)
Angela's.

[Speaker 9] (3:00:45 - 3:00:47)
um I just wanted to...

[Speaker 9] (3:00:48 - 3:00:52)
check with the board about potential special meeting dates for

[Speaker 3] (3:00:52 - 3:00:53)
It's my interesting point.

[Speaker 9] (3:00:53 - 3:00:57)
um the upcoming zoning by-law amendment changes

[Speaker 9] (3:00:57 - 3:01:03)
I had you all fill out a survey, but before Angela leaves, 'cause I know you have to leave early, I wanted to finalise that date.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:04 - 3:01:04)
Yeah.

[Speaker 9] (3:01:04 - 3:01:22)
Um and we it it's looking like it's October fifth or sixth. I know Jare didn't fill out the um survey, so I wanted to see a show of hands for which dates work better. If Monday, October fifth could potentially work for a special meeting, or Tuesday, October sixth.

[Speaker 7] (3:01:22 - 3:01:23)
I

[Speaker 3] (3:01:23 - 3:01:23)
It's

[Speaker 7] (3:01:23 - 3:01:23)
can

[Speaker 3] (3:01:23 - 3:01:23)
October

[Speaker 7] (3:01:23 - 3:01:23)
see it.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:23 - 3:01:25)
fifth, H_D_C_

[Speaker 7] (3:01:26 - 3:01:28)
I make a motion to

[Speaker 9] (3:01:28 - 3:01:29)
Would Tuesday,

[Speaker 3] (3:01:29 - 3:01:29)
Okay.

[Speaker 9] (3:01:29 - 3:01:31)
October sixth work for the board?

[Speaker 7] (3:01:31 - 3:01:32)
That's great.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:32 - 3:01:34)
That's I'm gonna say I think it should work for me. that's gonna Okay. work.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:34 - 3:01:36)
It's better than the fifth.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:37 - 3:01:40)
Because I believe the fifth that is the first Monday.

[Speaker 9] (3:01:40 - 3:01:40)
Okay.

[Speaker 4] (3:01:40 - 3:01:42)
I can never lose with a meeting.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:42 - 3:01:43)
Um yep, that works.

[Speaker 9] (3:01:46 - 3:01:53)
Okay, so we will schedule that and I will get that out to you. But I wanted before you had to leave I wanted to

[Speaker 7] (3:01:53 - 3:01:54)
Thank you very much.

[Speaker 9] (3:01:54 - 3:01:54)
let that scheduled.

[Speaker 3] (3:01:55 - 3:01:55)
Okay.

[Speaker 7] (3:01:57 - 3:01:57)
Hey Kenneth, can

[Speaker 3] (3:01:58 - 3:01:58)
Hey guys.

[Speaker 7] (3:01:58 - 3:01:59)
can you take

[Speaker 3] (3:01:59 - 3:01:59)
Can

[Speaker 7] (3:01:59 - 3:01:59)
it down,

[Speaker 3] (3:01:59 - 3:02:00)
you take it

[Speaker 7] (3:02:00 - 3:02:00)
out it's in really

[Speaker 3] (3:02:00 - 3:02:00)
the hallway?

[Speaker 7] (3:02:00 - 3:02:01)
hot outside.

[Speaker 3] (3:02:12 - 3:02:15)
I think it's a it's a meeting to talk about the zoning bylaws.

[Speaker 8] (3:02:15 - 3:02:16)
Perfect.

[Speaker 3] (3:02:16 - 3:02:16)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:02:17 - 3:02:28)
Okay. Um okay. Uh moving on to item number four, uh draft uh smart growth zoning district and uh discussion surrounding the same.

[Speaker 9] (3:02:29 - 3:02:34)
Great. Um so most of this we are going to keep for that special meeting that we just scheduled.

[Speaker 9] (3:02:34 - 3:02:36)
Uh if you um

[Speaker 9] (3:02:36 - 3:02:53)
Pretty minor updates and and minor discussion for the board um surrounding just the schedule and the forty R_ Um one thing specifically um M_A_P_C_ did their um filled out analysis

[Speaker 9] (3:02:53 - 3:03:18)
Um originally we had asked them to start that with thirty dwelling units per acre for the forty R district because that is what was assigned for the um Biden squared forty R that we already have. Um but noting that um our housing authority properties right now already exceed that with their garden apartment style. Um one of them, Dunkin Terrace, is actually twenty eight.

[Speaker 9] (3:03:18 - 3:03:44)
eight units per acre. Um it's one point four three acres, forty units. Um so it's already it's just under thirty dwelling units per acre but the other one um Doherty Circle is one point one four acres and forty four units, and that's thirty eight point six dwelling units per acre. So you know both of those together average thirty three dwelling units per acre. So what they are right now with their garden apartment style two stories

[Speaker 9] (3:03:44 - 3:04:09)
please spread out what they what they are. We wanted to rethink that 30 dwelling units per acre for the district because it would actually be less than what's there now if we wanted to potentially redevelop the housing authority properties. So thinking of those numbers um and what the board would be comfortable with. Um you don't have a to have a number together right now, but I just wanted to give some context as to what's existing and potentially um

[Speaker 9] (3:04:11 - 3:04:17)
Just if you could think about what what you potentially might be okay with um in terms of dwelling units per acre. Um

[Speaker 5] (3:04:17 - 3:04:21)
Does it have to be for the whole forty yard zoning or could there be some spot?

[Speaker 9] (3:04:21 - 3:04:26)
We we could do subdistricts. Um it would be

[Speaker 9] (3:04:28 - 3:04:37)
much simpler to do it all in one and I will say that if there's a higher dwelling unit per acre on there are a lot of very small properties.

[Speaker 9] (3:04:38 - 3:04:59)
um you're not going to be able to build up if you have a height cap right so it's for the really small properties um along the south of like Railroad Ave those you know if you allow a high dwelling units per acre that's not the amount of that's not like the amount of units that will be able to be built there

[Speaker 9] (3:04:59 - 3:05:21)
Um, you know, because you will have a stories cap. So just thinking about that, um, you know, we have to think about the the the box and kind of like the framework that um this will be allowing. And I I don't want going higher than thirty to, you know, be a scary thing because we will have those limits from the other standards and in terms of height.

[Speaker 7] (3:05:22 - 3:05:25)
And they can't be there can't be any comprehensive permits.

[Speaker 7] (3:05:25 - 3:05:27)
But it's not over a forty R_ is that right?

[Speaker 9] (3:05:28 - 3:05:29)
I would have to

[Speaker 7] (3:05:29 - 3:05:29)
It's

[Speaker 9] (3:05:29 - 3:05:29)
double-check

[Speaker 7] (3:05:29 - 3:05:30)
a tough

[Speaker 9] (3:05:30 - 3:05:30)
that.

[Speaker 7] (3:05:30 - 3:05:30)
lot, but

[Speaker 3] (3:05:30 - 3:05:31)
Yeah, that would seem

[Speaker 10] (3:05:31 - 3:05:38)
I crazy. I think Chris and I were talking about this at a very date too, is because of the the height limitation

[Speaker 10] (3:05:39 - 3:05:45)
really impacting the number of units on an acre as if there was an acre lot.

[Speaker 10] (3:05:46 - 3:05:49)
One of the things we do have to figure out is a graphic,

[Speaker 10] (3:05:50 - 3:06:01)
a very clear, clean explanation of why we can have this high number per acre because of this cap and sound examples that people in town meeting can look at because

[Speaker 7] (3:06:02 - 3:06:02)
Yeah.

[Speaker 10] (3:06:02 - 3:06:04)
the number needs to be in the zoning.

[Speaker 10] (3:06:05 - 3:06:06)
But we have to explain why.

[Speaker 7] (3:06:07 - 3:06:19)
I think, you know, and I've said this to Chris and probably to, you know, all of you perhaps one time or another, but I'm really concerned about, you know, bringing this proposal out at this time.

[Speaker 7] (3:06:20 - 3:06:26)
You know, you heard people tonight that are already just, you know, freaking out. I know the Pine Street just got approved.

[Speaker 7] (3:06:26 - 3:06:27)
We got the funding from that.

[Speaker 7] (3:06:27 - 3:06:29)
So Pine Street's going to start being built.

[Speaker 7] (3:06:30 - 3:06:39)
They're gonna be breaking ground on that. Um we've got that that's, you know, just down the street, we've got, you know if people are still

[Speaker 7] (3:06:39 - 3:07:04)
you know feeling the effects of Elm Place being there and being such a large development we've got you know Vernon Square going up at 160 some odd we've got you know this now this Glover I just I just fear people are going to say why are we doing this why are we doing this because they don't see it like you know it's they don't see it that it might be one or two lots that can you know get developed within a district

[Speaker 7] (3:07:05 - 3:07:08)
I just think it's going to be a tough sell, but that's it's just my opinion.

[Speaker 7] (3:07:09 - 3:07:17)
I could be totally wrong about this, and um I guess it's just a gut feeling about how how to deliver a town meeting and

[Speaker 9] (3:07:17 - 3:07:17)
Yep.

[Speaker 7] (3:07:17 - 3:07:21)
but I'm definitely not the authority on that. I just thought I'd

[Speaker 10] (3:07:21 - 3:07:28)
I I think your point is is very good. I mean it it is a case where how we pair up

[Speaker 10] (3:07:28 - 3:07:34)
ideas to what the current experience is, I think the question will be,

[Speaker 10] (3:07:37 - 3:07:37)
you know,

[Speaker 10] (3:07:37 - 3:07:44)
Can we talk about what the impact of Elm Place was? Can we talk, 'cause it's very hard when these things are

[Speaker 7] (3:07:44 - 3:07:44)
I know.

[Speaker 10] (3:07:44 - 3:07:45)
concepts,

[Speaker 7] (3:07:45 - 3:07:45)
Right.

[Speaker 10] (3:07:45 - 3:07:50)
because it's very easy to imagine the end of the end of times.

[Speaker 9] (3:07:50 - 3:07:50)
Yeah.

[Speaker 10] (3:07:50 - 3:07:57)
But we do have a series of projects that we may,

[Speaker 10] (3:07:58 - 3:08:03)
we may want to think about will we benefit from the reality of the project?

[Speaker 10] (3:08:04 - 3:08:08)
more than we will be impacted negatively by the fear

[Speaker 7] (3:08:08 - 3:08:09)
Right.

[Speaker 10] (3:08:09 - 3:08:09)
of

[Speaker 7] (3:08:09 - 3:08:09)
I

[Speaker 10] (3:08:09 - 3:08:09)
the

[Speaker 7] (3:08:09 - 3:08:09)
think

[Speaker 10] (3:08:09 - 3:08:09)
project.

[Speaker 7] (3:08:09 - 3:08:10)
that's what I was talking

[Speaker 10] (3:08:10 - 3:08:10)
And

[Speaker 7] (3:08:10 - 3:08:10)
about,

[Speaker 10] (3:08:10 - 3:08:10)
that's

[Speaker 7] (3:08:10 - 3:08:10)
is the fear,

[Speaker 10] (3:08:10 - 3:08:11)
yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 7] (3:08:11 - 3:08:18)
you know, is how and how do we address that? Are we prepared to address that? And I just think it's a, you know, it's a tough sell sometimes.

[Speaker 7] (3:08:18 - 3:08:22)
So anyway, I'm really sorry that I have to, I have to run out.

[Speaker 3] (3:08:22 - 3:08:23)
That's okay.

[Speaker 7] (3:08:23 - 3:08:25)
But thank you all very much.

[Speaker 3] (3:08:25 - 3:08:25)
I think same

[Speaker 9] (3:08:25 - 3:08:25)
Yeah. Thank

[Speaker 3] (3:08:25 - 3:08:25)
here.

[Speaker 9] (3:08:25 - 3:08:26)
you.

[Speaker 7] (3:08:26 - 3:08:29)
Everything is really a great meeting and a lot of good effort.

[Speaker 3] (3:08:29 - 3:08:31)
We will see you on the 6th.

[Speaker 2] (3:08:31 - 3:08:32)
You will.

[Speaker 3] (3:08:32 - 3:08:32)
Great.

[Speaker 2] (3:08:32 - 3:08:33)
Thank you. Oh boy.

[Speaker 2] (3:08:33 - 3:08:33)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:08:33 - 3:08:41)
And I'll have some materials prepared to hopefully selt start selling the idea of this.

[Speaker 2] (3:08:41 - 3:08:44)
Yeah. No, I I think that

[Speaker 4] (3:08:46 - 3:08:56)
I think there's a number of ways to talk about it. One of the things is there's not the adjacencies of what was approved and what's being built at Bingham Square to

[Speaker 3] (3:08:56 - 3:08:56)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 4] (3:08:56 - 3:09:07)
what's being being proposed at Salem Street. Um there's a number of reasons that this this could but we just need to analyse it and think how we how we talk about it.

[Speaker 5] (3:09:07 - 3:09:07)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:09:07 - 3:09:08)
Um

[Speaker 3] (3:09:08 - 3:09:11)
Right, so this is just some very brief

[Speaker 3] (3:09:11 - 3:09:24)
You know, this is what I was saying before the density considerations. Currently, you know, what what existing is an average over 30 dwelling units per acre. So I do think that it

[Speaker 3] (3:09:25 - 3:09:47)
it would benefit the board to consider, you know, going higher than what was allowed at Menden Square for the SMART growth. Um maybe you know you could think about it in terms of the Glover multi-family overlay like what are you comfortable with. Obviously there's a much smaller lots, so they are going to be confined by that, um with with the scale, um and that's something that

[Speaker 3] (3:09:48 - 3:09:59)
I can work with some graphics to try and show um so that those higher dwelling units per acre allowances aren't so scary um one presenting that, right. So

[Speaker 3] (3:10:03 - 3:10:07)
basically just the general questions um I had today

[Speaker 3] (3:10:07 - 3:10:16)
so that I can come back with something tangible um for that meeting on the sixth, or is there a general um

[Speaker 3] (3:10:18 - 3:10:27)
a general range for a number of dwelling units breaker that you might feel comfortable with um currently um and same with height for our five stories.

[Speaker 3] (3:10:28 - 3:10:47)
I do have just some general planning examples for Massachusetts. Um this is the famous um Redding development that was the forty hour in 2012. That's right next to their train station. Um you know, fifty three units, sixty eight dwelling units per acre. Um

[Speaker 2] (3:10:48 - 3:10:50)
Yeah, I think that's gonna s something like that would scare people.

[Speaker 3] (3:10:50 - 3:10:51)
Yeah,

[Speaker 4] (3:10:51 - 3:10:52)
The other thing

[Speaker 3] (3:10:52 - 3:10:52)
I

[Speaker 4] (3:10:52 - 3:10:52)
I'm are

[Speaker 3] (3:10:52 - 3:10:53)
won't include yeah,

[Speaker 4] (3:10:53 - 3:10:57)
there any images of this project that aren't um from above?

[Speaker 6] (3:10:57 - 3:10:58)
Yes.

[Speaker 4] (3:10:58 - 3:10:58)
Because

[Speaker 3] (3:10:58 - 3:10:59)
I

[Speaker 4] (3:10:59 - 3:11:03)
that's one of the things that that's like it's great because it's comprehensive, but it also

[Speaker 3] (3:11:03 - 3:11:05)
It makes it look scarier.

[Speaker 4] (3:11:05 - 3:11:05)
fairly, you

[Speaker 2] (3:11:05 - 3:11:05)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:11:05 - 3:11:14)
know, this is a building that that is built on a on a plinth and you know it's it's designed to be broken up but what's the experience that

[Speaker 4] (3:11:15 - 3:11:20)
You know people would have of it. I think if we're going to use that that would be good. I think this is a much better

[Speaker 3] (3:11:20 - 3:11:20)
Right.

[Speaker 4] (3:11:20 - 3:11:26)
example of you know you get the pedestrian the pedestrian scale that's a that's another four-story building and

[Speaker 3] (3:11:26 - 3:11:37)
Right. So this one was included because it's 0.2 acres, you know, so it's 89 dwelling units per acre, which could be a really scary number, but because the lot is so small.

[Speaker 4] (3:11:38 - 3:11:38)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:11:38 - 3:11:40)
Um it's just a four story building.

[Speaker 2] (3:11:40 - 3:11:46)
It's going to be hard for somebody. I I do see how that's hard for a lay person to understand though, like

[Speaker 2] (3:11:47 - 3:11:50)
that that they're gonna they're gonna dwell on the thirty per unit.

[Speaker 3] (3:11:50 - 3:11:55)
Yeah, I I just don't want people to think that eighty nine units are gonna be built, which is what, you know,

[Speaker 4] (3:11:55 - 3:11:55)
Yeah.

[Speaker 3] (3:11:55 - 3:12:00)
is commonly what might go through someone's head when they hear those numbers. So

[Speaker 7] (3:12:01 - 3:12:04)
Would it make sense to break it up by lots instead of by acres?

[Speaker 7] (3:12:05 - 3:12:07)
Or square feet.

[Speaker 3] (3:12:07 - 3:12:11)
I think what I, I'm what I'm thinking of doing is making a map that

[Speaker 3] (3:12:12 - 3:12:28)
shows, you know, there are only eight acres in the entire district, you know, so kind of displaying how small the lots are. Um I think reasonably like how many could you even fit on each lot, it's not very many. Um

[Speaker 3] (3:12:29 - 3:12:31)
You know, if there was a four-storey cap, for example.

[Speaker 4] (3:12:32 - 3:12:37)
y And what about when someone asks what if, you combine what if someone kind of bought all the lots and

[Speaker 7] (3:12:37 - 3:12:38)
Combine lots.

[Speaker 4] (3:12:38 - 3:12:39)
combine them all?

[Speaker 3] (3:12:39 - 3:12:43)
Yeah, I mean combining them would would make things very different obviously.

[Speaker 4] (3:12:43 - 3:12:47)
This is a mix of some residential and some commercial and

[Speaker 3] (3:12:47 - 3:12:48)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 4] (3:12:48 - 3:12:54)
would be an unusual I mean theoretically, I think the answer would have to be like theoretically it's possible, but like

[Speaker 3] (3:12:54 - 3:12:54)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:12:55 - 3:12:56)
highly um likely.

[Speaker 7] (3:12:56 - 3:12:56)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 3] (3:12:57 - 3:13:06)
Yeah, and I will say out of the eight acres in the district four are like right of way and M_B_T_A_ owned.

[Speaker 8] (3:13:06 - 3:13:07)
Oh, right,

[Speaker 3] (3:13:07 - 3:13:07)
It that's yeah,

[Speaker 8] (3:13:07 - 3:13:07)
a good point.

[Speaker 3] (3:13:07 - 3:13:10)
a lot of it's constrained. So a lot of it isn't even

[Speaker 8] (3:13:10 - 3:13:10)
Certainly

[Speaker 3] (3:13:10 - 3:13:11)
included

[Speaker 8] (3:13:11 - 3:13:11)
it's

[Speaker 3] (3:13:11 - 3:13:11)
in

[Speaker 8] (3:13:11 - 3:13:11)
not

[Speaker 3] (3:13:11 - 3:13:12)
the in the build out analysis,

[Speaker 8] (3:13:12 - 3:13:13)
in someone

[Speaker 3] (3:13:13 - 3:13:13)
but yeah.

[Speaker 8] (3:13:13 - 3:13:14)
somehow could solidify

[Speaker 4] (3:13:14 - 3:13:17)
But still, if someone does the math and says four times eighty nine and

[Speaker 8] (3:13:17 - 3:13:17)
Yeah,

[Speaker 4] (3:13:17 - 3:13:18)
you think

[Speaker 8] (3:13:18 - 3:13:18)
sure.

[Speaker 4] (3:13:18 - 3:13:18)
that's

[Speaker 3] (3:13:18 - 3:13:18)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:13:18 - 3:13:20)
a lot But the reality of it is

[Speaker 4] (3:13:21 - 3:13:24)
different than that, because they're not contiguous.

[Speaker 9] (3:13:24 - 3:13:24)
Yep.

[Speaker 4] (3:13:24 - 3:13:24)
Contiguous.

[Speaker 2] (3:13:25 - 3:13:34)
I don't know I'm ca I'm coming back to Jer's uh discussion about like design standards. I I get nervous about approving something like this

[Speaker 2] (3:13:34 - 3:13:45)
without the design standard oversight like having some sort of review board. You know that's I think that's been the biggest shortfall of all these big developments is

[Speaker 2] (3:13:46 - 3:13:50)
Like well they met the requirements, they checked the boxes and in the end

[Speaker 2] (3:13:51 - 3:14:02)
our hands are tied a little bit on the design. Like if it was a nice if it stepped back at a certain height, if it you know if there were parameters for that, I'd feel much more comfortable.

[Speaker 3] (3:14:03 - 3:14:08)
So M_A_P_C_ is working on design standards for this, so they'll be um presented

[Speaker 2] (3:14:08 - 3:14:08)
I to think

[Speaker 3] (3:14:08 - 3:14:08)
you guys.

[Speaker 2] (3:14:08 - 3:14:09)
it was of the 40 R_

[Speaker 3] (3:14:09 - 3:14:10)
Yep.

[Speaker 2] (3:14:10 - 3:14:10)
okay.

[Speaker 2] (3:14:12 - 3:14:12)
I thought

[Speaker 4] (3:14:12 - 3:14:13)
Yeah, 'cause that that

[Speaker 4] (3:14:15 - 3:14:28)
I think that's one of the hardest things is when when we're looking at designs and we're seeing where the short falls are, we can make suggestions about it, but they don't it doesn't impact our approval and that's uh

[Speaker 3] (3:14:32 - 3:14:37)
Yeah, there are certain um examples of kinda like scaling with

[Speaker 3] (3:14:37 - 3:15:03)
If it's a larger lot, maybe having shorter buildings towards the street, the larger buildings behind. Um certain examples that we can bring forward, um we don't there aren't that many lots that are that big, but thinking of the housing authority properties that are both over an acre of this entire site, um we can come up with some examples of um design types like this that we could include.

[Speaker 3] (3:15:05 - 3:15:05)
Potentially.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:13 - 3:15:19)
It would be pretty amazing with such a small, you know, what what we're looking at being four acres.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:20 - 3:15:25)
Um I wonder if there'd be a way to have someone develop

[Speaker 4] (3:15:26 - 3:15:28)
images on those four.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:29 - 3:15:31)
You know, it it's a case of like

[Speaker 2] (3:15:31 - 3:15:31)
Yeah, it's

[Speaker 4] (3:15:31 - 3:15:32)
if street you

[Speaker 2] (3:15:32 - 3:15:32)
scales.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:32 - 3:15:33)
think of like Street Columbia

[Speaker 2] (3:15:33 - 3:15:33)
scale, yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:33 - 3:15:36)
um Columbia Street Street.

[Speaker 2] (3:15:36 - 3:15:37)
Yep, yeah,

[Speaker 4] (3:15:37 - 3:15:37)
That

[Speaker 7] (3:15:37 - 3:15:38)
Whatever.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:38 - 3:15:43)
that's that's a street that is probably the most likely to

[Speaker 2] (3:15:43 - 3:15:43)
Benefit.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:43 - 3:15:45)
to benefit and be developed.

[Speaker 3] (3:15:45 - 3:15:45)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:46 - 3:15:48)
And uh if there was a way of

[Speaker 3] (3:15:48 - 3:15:50)
It has the most potential for um

[Speaker 3] (3:15:52 - 3:15:53)
radical change,

[Speaker 2] (3:15:53 - 3:15:53)
Yep.

[Speaker 3] (3:15:53 - 3:15:53)
I would say.

[Speaker 2] (3:15:53 - 3:15:54)
And walkability,

[Speaker 3] (3:15:54 - 3:15:54)
All

[Speaker 2] (3:15:54 - 3:15:55)
all of of it.

[Speaker 3] (3:15:55 - 3:15:55)
it, yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:15:55 - 3:16:04)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's and it's interesting I was I was driving it the other day and I was thinking it's it's it's

[Speaker 4] (3:16:05 - 3:16:08)
going to be hard for people to perceive the fact that where's

[Speaker 4] (3:16:09 - 3:16:31)
That was shocking where Swamp Scott ends because you're you slip quickly into Lynn. So it's actually quite a small distance that's in the town, but I think it would almost be helpful for them to be able to see, for people to be able to see what that sounding is. Do you happen to know if Lynn is doing anything around 40R in that similar area, even though the train station is.

[Speaker 3] (3:16:33 - 3:16:48)
I don't know if they have any 40 hours in the works, but I do want to show you let me see so we took some pictures and my P_C_ came and walked around, um and they sent me some

[Speaker 3] (3:16:51 - 3:16:52)
of the photos.

[Speaker 4] (3:16:52 - 3:16:54)
But even like the other side of Eastern Ave,

[Speaker 4] (3:16:55 - 3:16:57)
that was all industrial replaced with housing.

[Speaker 3] (3:17:00 - 3:17:03)
Right, so let me pull this up really quick.

[Speaker 3] (3:17:09 - 3:17:10)
So they took some pretty

[Speaker 3] (3:17:12 - 3:17:13)
interesting pictures.

[Speaker 3] (3:17:14 - 3:17:15)
Um so this

[Speaker 3] (3:17:17 - 3:17:24)
here is actually the Housing Authority property um that abuts Lind. So this is in Lind, this is the density literally

[Speaker 3] (3:17:24 - 3:17:38)
right across the property line, um and this is what we have here at thirty dwelling units per acre. Um this is a um fifty five plus housing development um inland,

[Speaker 3] (3:17:38 - 3:17:42)
but you could you know this definitely shows this the scales of change.

[Speaker 3] (3:17:42 - 3:17:43)
Um

[Speaker 10] (3:17:43 - 3:17:43)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 3] (3:17:43 - 3:17:43)
there

[Speaker 11] (3:17:43 - 3:17:47)
It's not on like a little cul-de-sac, it's not on Eastern Ave or it's it has its own little lane.

[Speaker 4] (3:17:47 - 3:17:48)
It's behind it

[Speaker 11] (3:17:48 - 3:17:48)
Yeah, it's behind

[Speaker 4] (3:17:48 - 3:17:49)
it's it's

[Speaker 11] (3:17:49 - 3:17:49)
Monty's

[Speaker 4] (3:17:49 - 3:17:49)
back behind,

[Speaker 11] (3:17:49 - 3:17:50)
or something like

[Speaker 3] (3:17:50 - 3:17:50)
Yep.

[Speaker 4] (3:17:50 - 3:17:50)
yeah.

[Speaker 11] (3:17:50 - 3:17:50)
that, like

[Speaker 4] (3:17:50 - 3:17:50)
Yeah.

[Speaker 11] (3:17:50 - 3:17:50)
yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:17:50 - 3:17:52)
Yeah, it's sort of that

[Speaker 11] (3:17:52 - 3:17:52)
Yeah,

[Speaker 4] (3:17:52 - 3:17:52)
zone

[Speaker 11] (3:17:52 - 3:17:52)
up

[Speaker 4] (3:17:52 - 3:17:52)
behind

[Speaker 11] (3:17:52 - 3:17:53)
and then Monty's. over there.

[Speaker 3] (3:17:54 - 3:18:01)
Yeah, so there's a lot more density in Lynn, um where, you know, this district potentially would abut all of that.

[Speaker 4] (3:18:02 - 3:18:09)
Do you happen to know where in the estimated lifespan of the existing housing here

[Speaker 4] (3:18:10 - 3:18:16)
You know, what's are the conditions such that this is coming up for replacement in conversation or

[Speaker 3] (3:18:18 - 3:18:24)
Um, I haven't heard um comment directly on the condition. Uh w it they were built in '61 and '62.

[Speaker 1] (3:18:39 - 3:18:46)
So from you all, is there any other suggestions leading up to the meeting on the sixth of what you would like to see

[Speaker 1] (3:18:46 - 3:18:49)
um in terms of,

[Speaker 1] (3:18:49 - 3:18:50)
you

[Speaker 1] (3:18:51 - 3:18:55)
know, other properties that you think would be good examples to show,

[Speaker 1] (3:18:57 - 3:19:06)
illustrations that you think would be good specifically, or anything um that staff can put together for that meeting that you think would be beneficial.

[Speaker 2] (3:19:12 - 3:19:25)
I think I think a group of something graphic that that can explain I don't I'm my brain is a little fried right now in the sense of like coming up with a great example of it, but if we were to pull if

[Speaker 2] (3:19:27 - 3:19:35)
we could look on the map, you and I could could sit down and and just pull some sites maybe that are adjacent and just do massing um

[Speaker 1] (3:19:35 - 3:19:35)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (3:19:35 - 3:19:37)
what this looks like um

[Speaker 3] (3:19:38 - 3:19:40)
Yeah, I think that would be the most helpful.

[Speaker 2] (3:19:40 - 3:19:44)
Yeah, because I think that's when it's just c unfortunately

[Speaker 2] (3:19:49 - 3:19:55)
unfortunately people are going to they're they're going to immediately jump to um place and sort of that the

[Speaker 1] (3:19:55 - 3:19:55)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (3:19:55 - 3:20:03)
the density of that and uh if we can show the fact that these numbers would probably uh not

[Speaker 2] (3:20:03 - 3:20:05)
End up with a massive building type like

[Speaker 4] (3:20:05 - 3:20:05)
What

[Speaker 2] (3:20:05 - 3:20:05)
that.

[Speaker 4] (3:20:05 - 3:20:07)
what is the density of our place?

[Speaker 1] (3:20:08 - 3:20:09)
Sorry?

[Speaker 4] (3:20:09 - 3:20:11)
The density of our place, what is that?

[Speaker 1] (3:20:12 - 3:20:16)
You know, I've been meaning to get that number, I'm sorry that I don't have it right now.

[Speaker 4] (3:20:16 - 3:20:18)
Just because Jared brought it up. But

[Speaker 2] (3:20:18 - 3:20:19)
No no, but that's

[Speaker 2] (3:20:19 - 3:20:20)
I I I'm

[Speaker 1] (3:20:20 - 3:20:21)
It's been brought up.

[Speaker 2] (3:20:21 - 3:20:28)
like imagining and everything up, but that's a g that's a great question. But Krista, no one would expect you to have that in your back pocket.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:29 - 3:20:30)
I actually thought of it this afternoon

[Speaker 2] (3:20:30 - 3:20:31)
Oh,

[Speaker 1] (3:20:31 - 3:20:31)
and I forgot

[Speaker 2] (3:20:31 - 3:20:31)
did you?

[Speaker 1] (3:20:31 - 3:20:32)
to get it.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:32 - 3:20:34)
Because it is it's one of those questions that's right there.

[Speaker 3] (3:20:34 - 3:20:35)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:35 - 3:20:37)
And it's something that I should know.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:37 - 3:20:41)
But it's something that we can compare that with,

[Speaker 1] (3:20:41 - 3:20:43)
you know, what the potential.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:44 - 3:20:48)
parameters of this district would allow. You know if it's less than that we could

[Speaker 1] (3:20:49 - 3:20:55)
it could look like hey this is not going to be, you know, as large or intense as on place

[Speaker 3] (3:20:55 - 3:20:56)
Mm-mm.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:56 - 3:20:56)
um to So potentially

[Speaker 4] (3:20:56 - 3:20:59)
again that's conspected a lot probably. Because it's a big lot.

[Speaker 1] (3:20:59 - 3:20:59)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:20:59 - 3:21:01)
It can handle a lot of massing

[Speaker 3] (3:21:01 - 3:21:02)
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:02 - 3:21:02)
because again it can handle

[Speaker 1] (3:21:02 - 3:21:03)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:03 - 3:21:03)
it.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:03 - 3:21:09)
But but at the same time that lot also that was a collection of lots, I'm assuming, that wasn't all owned by one

[Speaker 4] (3:21:09 - 3:21:09)
There's

[Speaker 2] (3:21:09 - 3:21:09)
party.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:09 - 3:21:10)
a few.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:10 - 3:21:10)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:10 - 3:21:11)
Not

[Speaker 2] (3:21:11 - 3:21:11)
So

[Speaker 4] (3:21:11 - 3:21:12)
not a whole bunch.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:12 - 3:21:16)
I mean that's that's the argument we need to be ready for too because

[Speaker 2] (3:21:16 - 3:21:22)
'Cause it is true that two neighbours can make a decision to like tear it down, write me a cheque, let's get out of it.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:22 - 3:21:22)
Recording

[Speaker 5] (3:21:22 - 3:21:22)
Or

[Speaker 4] (3:21:22 - 3:21:22)
is an

[Speaker 5] (3:21:22 - 3:21:23)
sell example it to

[Speaker 4] (3:21:23 - 3:21:23)
of that,

[Speaker 5] (3:21:23 - 3:21:23)
somebody

[Speaker 4] (3:21:23 - 3:21:23)
right?

[Speaker 5] (3:21:23 - 3:21:23)
else.

[Speaker 3] (3:21:23 - 3:21:23)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:23 - 3:21:24)
Recording

[Speaker 5] (3:21:24 - 3:21:24)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:24 - 3:21:24)
ones

[Speaker 2] (3:21:24 - 3:21:24)
Yeah.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:24 - 3:21:25)
I built in serious.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:25 - 3:21:27)
Yeah. But it was a single owner.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:27 - 3:21:30)
Okay, same owner owned them all, but they were all separate lots.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:30 - 3:21:30)
Yep.

[Speaker 5] (3:21:30 - 3:21:35)
But the same owner's gonna start to collect. I mean if they're interested they will start to collect up adjacent lots.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:38 - 3:21:40)
And that's gotta have a huge uh

[Speaker 4] (3:21:41 - 3:21:42)
density there.

[Speaker 4] (3:21:45 - 3:21:52)
Concordia, some of the other ones not so much; at Green Woods, only twenty eight units, but it's a pretty good size lot, so

[Speaker 4] (3:21:53 - 3:21:55)
it's not gonna really impact things. Pines

[Speaker 2] (3:21:55 - 3:21:58)
But at the same time what it was rep you know the

[Speaker 5] (3:21:58 - 3:21:58)
The postcode.

[Speaker 2] (3:21:58 - 3:22:02)
Green Wood the build the building it replaced was

[Speaker 3] (3:22:02 - 3:22:02)
It's cool.

[Speaker 2] (3:22:02 - 3:22:07)
massive yeah, exactly. So that that sort of has a diff almost the reverse impact.

[Speaker 4] (3:22:07 - 3:22:08)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (3:22:10 - 3:22:22)
Right. Um, well thank you all for your time. I will just say on the other potential zoning bylaw updates we met with KP law this morning and the clerk.

[Speaker 1] (3:22:23 - 3:22:39)
And just some updates on that. KPLaw has reviewed the language for all of the proposals and gotten that back to us, so I will have that for you on the meeting on the 6th. I'll send it to you before for any questions and comments. But in the other news,

[Speaker 1] (3:22:39 - 3:22:46)
the clerk is moving forward. They are hoping to move forward the potential codification.

[Speaker 1] (3:22:47 - 3:22:55)
of the on-line zoning by-law, um which would be potentially changing our section numbers, um

[Speaker 1] (3:22:56 - 3:23:04)
as it co as it goes on-line. So that would be proposed before our changes and then our changes would happen um but they would be

[Speaker 1] (3:23:05 - 3:23:07)
still the old numbering.

[Speaker 1] (3:23:07 - 3:23:16)
Um with the note that the clerk has um the power to change that after the fact because they're allowed to make those changes.

[Speaker 2] (3:23:17 - 3:23:19)
I should have just memorised all those numbers. I'm

[Speaker 1] (3:23:19 - 3:23:20)
No. So it'll

[Speaker 2] (3:23:20 - 3:23:21)
I'm kidding.

[Speaker 1] (3:23:21 - 3:23:22)
still be familiar,

[Speaker 1] (3:23:22 - 3:23:28)
you know, as we're not changing anything we don't we want it to be a at like as

[Speaker 1] (3:23:29 - 3:23:39)
Hopefully as straightforward and not confusing as possible to people. So um I think retaining the old language so people know or the old numbering so people know where they are is a good thing.

[Speaker 1] (3:23:39 - 3:23:50)
Um with the note that this would change to, you know, this in the future. Um but it is exciting to get the by-law online. So that'll be

[Speaker 5] (3:23:49 - 3:23:50)
Yeah, and then

[Speaker 2] (3:23:50 - 3:23:50)
And

[Speaker 5] (3:23:50 - 3:24:02)
and then um when we have to go in front of town meeting maybe we talk about this on the sixth, but do these um amendments, are they voted on one by one or is it a group kind of consent agenda?

[Speaker 1] (3:24:03 - 3:24:05)
So this is something, if you have thoughts um

[Speaker 1] (3:24:06 - 3:24:26)
we're happy to take them. I'm actually meeting with Marcy tomorrow to talk about the breakdown of the warrants. So a lot of the changes are vastly different. So they are going to be separate warrants because that way, you know, they can be voted on separately. We don't want

[Speaker 1] (3:24:26 - 3:24:31)
something to be included that someone has a problem with and then, you know, everything would

[Speaker 5] (3:24:31 - 3:24:32)
Oh, gets potentially thrown out.

[Speaker 1] (3:24:32 - 3:24:38)
be denied. So because they're different topics, they're likely mostly gonna be grouped in different Word articles.

[Speaker 3] (3:24:38 - 3:24:38)
Yeah.

[Speaker 5] (3:24:38 - 3:24:38)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:38 - 3:24:39)
And I think that's good too,

[Speaker 5] (3:24:39 - 3:24:40)
That because makes

[Speaker 2] (3:24:40 - 3:24:40)
you

[Speaker 5] (3:24:40 - 3:24:40)
sense.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:40 - 3:24:41)
can get people that are frustrated

[Speaker 5] (3:24:41 - 3:24:42)
Yeah, they're just gonna

[Speaker 2] (3:24:42 - 3:24:42)
in

[Speaker 5] (3:24:42 - 3:24:42)
get

[Speaker 2] (3:24:42 - 3:24:42)
a town

[Speaker 5] (3:24:42 - 3:24:42)
the rail

[Speaker 2] (3:24:42 - 3:24:42)
meeting

[Speaker 5] (3:24:42 - 3:24:42)
on something.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:42 - 3:24:44)
and they're just like this this

[Speaker 1] (3:24:44 - 3:24:44)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:44 - 3:24:46)
needs to be indefinitely postponed

[Speaker 5] (3:24:46 - 3:24:47)
And then it's contagious.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:47 - 3:24:47)
yeah, it's okay

[Speaker 1] (3:24:47 - 3:24:52)
Yeah. So a few of them are really short. Like just changing the ADUs

[Speaker 1] (3:24:51 - 3:24:52)
is

[Speaker 3] (3:24:52 - 3:24:52)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (3:24:52 - 3:24:52)
yeah.

[Speaker 2] (3:24:52 - 3:24:52)
No.

[Speaker 3] (3:24:53 - 3:24:54)
Never happens.

[Speaker 1] (3:24:56 - 3:25:02)
Yeah, a few of them are really short and pretty basic, but they are their own thing, so they'll still be they'll still be separated out.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:02 - 3:25:02)
Yeah, because it's good.

[Speaker 1] (3:25:04 - 3:25:06)
Um but that's all I have for you guys.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:06 - 3:25:06)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (3:25:06 - 3:25:07)
Great, thank you.

[Speaker 5] (3:25:07 - 3:25:07)
Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:07 - 3:25:07)
Thanks.

[Speaker 1] (3:25:07 - 3:25:08)
Thank you.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:09 - 3:25:14)
Alright, well with that if there are any more questions we have a motion to adjourn.

[Speaker 2] (3:25:14 - 3:25:15)
So moved.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:15 - 3:25:15)
Second.

[Speaker 5] (3:25:16 - 3:25:16)
Second.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:16 - 3:25:17)
Alright, all those in favour?

[Speaker 2] (3:25:17 - 3:25:17)
Aye.

[Speaker 3] (3:25:17 - 3:25:17)
Aye.

[Speaker 5] (3:25:17 - 3:25:18)
Aye.